Georgia and Russia at war.

[Ramirezzz]

More good reads.

Read as many of the Op-Eds as possible and you probably get a good idea of what is going on.

I prefer European magazines. At least they tend to be neutral. Beside that I have my own sources in the conflict area.

 

[Ramirezzz]

some fresh pictures from Georgia:

sirjones: Письмо оÑ' Ð"рабкина. ФоÑ'ограÑ"ии инсайд.

highway Gori-Tbilisi ,abandonded Georgian military vehicles and artillery pieces, destroyed APC , damaged bridge

 

[SoD Stitch]

.

BTW, Russia did not bluntly strike back as you might suggest, but acted accordingly to a well ahead prepared plan – knowing about the Georgian ambitions.

Regards
Kruska

Yes, a "well prepared plan". I have it on good authority that Russia has been planning an invasion of Georgia for weeks, if not months. Russia has attempted (unsuccessfully) in the past to provoke Georgia into intiating hostilities so that they would have an excuse to invade Georgia. They first tried to provoke Georgia in Ahkazia and failed; so they provoked Georgia in South Ossetia (and succeeded). Go here for a live feed:

http://www.theworld.org/audio/0812088.mp3

 

[Ramirezzz]

some good read about the Georgian prewar fleet:

Russian Navy Blog: A Russian Mil Blogger turns his gaze on the Georgian Navy

 

[Ramirezzz]

They first tried to provoke Georgia in Ahkazia and failed;

GEORGIA REGAINS CONTROL OVER BATTLE IN KODORI - Eurasia Daily Monitor

in 2006 Georgians entered the Kodori Valley, part of the Abkhazia, which was violation of the 1994 Moscow cease-fire agreement. Russia kept silence.
so much about the alleged Abkhazian provocation.

 

[Ramirezzz]

http://www.theworld.org/audio/0812088.mp3[/URL]

nothing new, just some old Georgian "provocation" claims.

 

[stasoid]

Yes, a "well prepared plan". I have it on good authority that Russia has been planning an invasion of Georgia for weeks, if not months. Russia has attempted (unsuccessfully) in the past to provoke Georgia into intiating hostilities so that they would have an excuse to invade Georgia. They first tried to provoke Georgia in Ahkazia and failed; so they provoked Georgia in South Ossetia (and succeeded).

Oh, here is an expert in Russia's-Georgian relations.
And what were those objectives of the russian invasion?
Had they been achieved or mother Russia's plan failed?

 

[JugBR]

ramirezzz, what your opinion about hows gonna be the relationship between georgians and russians after conflict ?

and do you think the politicians could reach the solution for the issue of s. ossetia ?

i have a feeling that the situation after conflict will remains the same or even worst. do you agree or disagree ?

-----------------------------

very interesting !

i saw in internet pics of russians protesting in moscow against the conflict. do you believe in soviet times this could be possible ? russia is not soviet union.

-----------------------------

ramirezzz, mitya, a question for you two:

lets pretend that today, south ossetia became independent. if south ossetia and north ossetia decided to become one independent nation(republic of ossetia), what do you think should be the reaction of puttin and the public opinion of russia ?

-----------------------------

i believe that conflict wasnt an prelude of another cold war, but its very clear that is not the problem former soviet republics approach the west. is not a problem georgia or ukraine enter in european union. they are independent nations, they do what they want.

i think the problem is that europen union and the nato didnt approach enought to russia. if you straight relations with ukraine or georgia, you should also straight relations with russia, because is the strongest country in the region and the russian support and cooperation is very important.

and russia needs to overcome the past and also join the europen community, maybe not as part of european union yet, but take part and participate of eropean decisions and solutions. its very important to europe have russia as friend, also very important to russia, the european markets, the investments, because russia is growing their economy, to be the "next asian tiger".

 

[Milos Sijacki]

Well I think it was Georgian president who said that USA and NATO responded weakly, I think that the only way to respond was the way it was, if we don't want a major war and crisis in our hands.

 

[Ramirezzz]

Oh, here is an expert in Russia's-Georgian relations.
And what were those objectives of the russian invasion?
Had they been achieved or mother Russia's plan failed?

SoD Stitch, no offence here, but the Russian - Georgian relation issue as an every Kaukasus issue is indeed a very complex one and has a long history. Someone who wants to understand what's going on needs to get through a lot of reading. For example for my part I hesitate to make any radical statements on the US-Colombian or Salvadorian relations since my knowlege here is very limited. Let us dig a little bit deeper.

 

[Ramirezzz]

ramirezzz, what your opinion about hows gonna be the relationship between georgians and russians after conflict ?

I believe despite what's going on between our two countries Georgians remain a very close nation to the Russians, there about 1,5 million of Georgians in Russia and about 1 million in particulary Moscow. I have some very good friends in Georgia , they are all extremly warm and good people and I dont think our different opinions would spoil our relationship much. So for the much of Russians.

and do you think the politicians could reach the solution for the issue of s. ossetia ?

I believe Russia and EU will have a very hard time to convince Georgia in executing the cease-fire agreement in the proposed form. But the compromise is possible though. But it will take time.Both sides and some "third" parties are still very affected by the events of last four days.

i have a feeling that the situation after conflict will remains the same or even worst. do you agree or disagree ?

well that depends from which point of view you see it. From Ossetian or Abkhazian that means a complete victory - I do not believe Georgia will try to retake these provinces in the nearest future. For Georgia that means a defeat and complete loss of any chance to regain control on those two regions and for Saakashvili himself it is a very personal loss because of his promises made some years ago .For Russia the outcome is rather mixed - they achieved all goals in the military operation, politically gained much prestige in the local Caukasus area. But the relationship to the US is hopeless damaged, if not destroyed , the relations between Russia and EU though aren't much affected.

i saw in internet pics of russians protesting in moscow against the conflict.

I believe some Georgians in Moscow protested against the war. 95 % of Russians support the goverment's actions.

do you believe in soviet times this could be possible ? russia is not soviet union.

no , it couldn't. in 1968 three or four dissidents tried to express their protest at the Red Square against the invasion in Czechoslovakia but were quickly arrested.

ramirezzz, mitya, a question for you two:

lets pretend that today, south ossetia became independent. if south ossetia and north ossetia decided to become one independent nation(republic of ossetia), what do you think should be the reaction of puttin and the public opinion of russia ?

If North Ossetia will unite with the South Ossetia that means the South Ossetia is goingt to be a part of Russia As for peoples opinion, the very latest public poll showed more than a half of Russians support the idea of integration of SO into the Russian Federation. But I honestly don't think the goverment will make any steps at this directon in the nearest future.

i think the problem is that europen union and the nato didnt approach enought to russia. if you straight relations with ukraine or georgia, you should also straight relations with russia, because is the strongest country in the region and the russian support and cooperation is very important.

the funniest thing is that Ukraine for the most part doesn't want to integrate itself to the Europe. Almost 60 percent of the Ukrainans are against NATO membership.

and russia needs to overcome the past and also join the europen community, maybe not as part of european union yet, but take part and participate of eropean decisions and solutions.

they do it already for a long time. There're a lot of cooperative teamwork between EU and Russia on many issues.

 

[Ramirezzz]

good article in the Times Online

Georgia loses the fight with Russia, but manages to win the PR war - Times Online

I must admit I'm completely unsatisfied with the Russian PR policy in this war. They allowed Georgians to maintain the Russia's image as an agressor and opressor with the help of twisting and reversing the facts. Russian PR was much too slow. And the georgian president in contrast spent much more time making one statement after another for western medias. That's the thing Russia still should learn.

 

[Ramirezzz]

12 часов до смерÑ'и (ФОТО, Ð'ИÐ"ЕО) — "Московский Комсомолец"
for those who can read Russian - a journalist account of the first day close combat. Pretty much disorder around. Some videos are there as well .
some horrible scene here - Russia initially sent just a motorifle battalion against Georgian troops who already've captured Tshinvali. A single battalion with 32 APC and 2 tanks with only one combat rate (half of their ammuniton was mock) of against two or three Georgian regiments, Russians were repulsed with very severe casulties.
At the same time Saakashvili told the world about 150 russian tanks invading Ossetia.

 

[Milos Sijacki]

Ram, can't load the post

 

[Matt308]

where is the contradiction? Nobody denies there were targets in "continental" Georgia being bombed by Russian planes.

Try the total annihilation part, Ramerezzz. That has not occurred. And russia isn't going to go there.

 

[Matt308]

SoD Stitch, no offence here, but the Russian - Georgian relation issue as an every Kaukasus issue is indeed a very complex one and has a long history. Someone who wants to understand what's going on needs to get through a lot of reading. For example for my part I hesitate to make any radical statements on the US-Colombian or Salvadorian relations since my knowlege here is very limited. Let us dig a little bit deeper.

Yeah SoD Stitch, you are not qualified nor capable of making intelligent posts about this ancient conflict. I think I'm gonna leave this thread to you folks. The continued defensive posture by our russian members is disturbing. US posts made in a neutral fashion are quickly dismissed as irrelevant, based upon western propoganda, or are veiled support by state sponsored disinformation. Even US member posts in support of russian actions are met with disdain, mistrust, and suspect. I tire of the barriers that exist.

So as a moderator, I'll let you guys get back to your discussion. But I caution you, keep it civil. Later.

 

[Ramirezzz]

don't twist my words Matt. if you don't like my posts - then throw some facts into the fire. Or arguments. Or anything. But based on facts, not claims.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh, here is an expert in Russia's-Georgian relations.

And you are?

Just as you are entitled to state you opinions in posts, he is as well. Dont forget that...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well I think it was Georgian president who said that USA and NATO responded weakly, I think that the only way to respond was the way it was, if we don't want a major war and crisis in our hands.

Dont back out of this. You said that the US and NATO responded in a weak manner, now back it up.

 

[Erich]

did I read this right on some news thing this morn ? Bushy is sending aide to Georgia ?