Georgia and Russia at war.

[Matt308]

i also forgot man, sorry cant help you.

.

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ONE!!!

Tell me Jug, what would the average Brazilian think if russia supplied arms and training to the indigenous people of the Amazon in support of a separatist state? Amazonia. Heck, what if they decided on a whim to send "peacekeeping troops" into Brazil to make that happen?

[not sure I want your answer given your siggy]

 

[JugBR]

The whole point here my friend is enterprises WILL NOT have taxes reduced if they create jobs - PERIOD! Ever hear of a place in the US called Michigan? It's where Ford and GM is located and was the automobile producing capital of the world. Michigan is dying because not only Ford and GM are doing poorly as companies, but they and a host of other Michigan companies are being taxed to death DESPITE HOW MANY PEOPLE THEY EMPLOY!!!!

The jobs are moved to other states where the taxes are reasonable or even worse, they are moved overseas!!!

Michigan is one example - Southern California had a huge aerospace base in the 1980s - now it's just a shadow of what it used to be.

gm could die in hell, but ford is awesome.

gm is bricklayer´s autos, they also have a brick-shape to remember that !

ford rules, best lines best design

you can go everywhere wheres ford and gm sell autos in the world. the gm autos will be always brick-shaped and the ford ones a state of art.

 

[JugBR]

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ONE!!!

Tell me Jug, what would the average Brazilian think if russia supplied arms and training to the indigenous people of the Amazon in support of a separatist state? Amazonia. Heck, what if they decided on a whim to send "peacekeeping troops" into Brazil to make that happen?

[not sure I want your answer given your siggy]

training indigenous people in amazon ? whe gonna think is a quite weird idea ! theres nothing there, just bush, monkeys and parrots, we try to burn that by decades but the godamm bushes still growing !!!



just kidding. the indians are brazilian citzens, the ossetians arent georgian citzens. btw, acording ramirezzz they never was georgian citzens because since georgia became independent the ossetians wants to be also independent of georgia. also they are a diferent ethiny of georgians.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

gm could die in hell, but ford is awesome.

gm is bricklayer´s autos, they also have a brick-shape to remember that !

ford rules, best lines best design

you can go everywhere wheres ford and gm sell autos in the world. the gm autos will be always brick-shaped and the ford ones a state of art.

Well take heed in my post because the way things are going neither one will be around much longer.

 

[Matt308]

training indigenous people in amazon ? whe gonna think is a quite weird idea ! theres nothing there, just bush, monkeys and parrots, we try to burn that by decades but the godamm bushes still growing !!!.

Well since they are just monkeys, then I guess your right. Who cares.

the ossetians arent georgian citzens. btw, acording ramirezzz they never was georgian citzens because since georgia became independent the ossetians wants to be also independent of georgia. also they are a diferent ethiny of georgians.

Well if ramirezzz says its true it must be. They are part of Georgia! They are seperatists, but are part of Georgia. Just like your "monkeys" who want Amazonia. And guess what. Those "monkeys" are of a different ethnic group too.

So Jug is this a racist divide you profess?

 

[JugBR]

Well take heed in my post because the way things are going neither one will be around much longer.

if the situation in michigan is too bad as you said, i agree with you 100%

i just think the government must ensure their people have jobs and their industry grows. if the obama´s view is not right, i think neithers bush is, because as you said the situation is bad in michigan.

but look, obama could be ellected and the situation change for better. why to be so radical, everything the guys says is stupid, isnt right. i think the main idea of keep jobs and money inside usa for the americans is good.

but you forget, obama also waants to tax the imports to protect american industry so if you buy a german bmw or a japanese toyota, you gonna pay much more than buy a brick shaped malibu or a beautifull mustang. of couse its just a example over your previous example, but the idea is make americans buy more american stuff, american multinationals hire more american workers and the money keeps inside usa. isnt that good for you ?

 

[Matt308]

i just think the government must ensure their people have jobs and their industry grows.

That is exactly the difference between a liberal and a conservative. A conservative is not expecting the gov't to "ensure" people have jobs and industry grows. Fundamental differences that are lost on most people.

 

[Matt308]

Uh... russia vs little Georgia? Where were we? If this thread continues to be sidetracked I'm gonna close it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

if the situation in michigan is too bad as you said, i agree with you 100%

i just think the government must ensure their people have jobs and their industry grows. if the obama´s view is not right, i think neithers bush is, because as you said the situation is bad in michigan.

The only way to do that is to ensure business has a good development and growth base and there are tax incentives to induce investment. Democrats have always been short sided on this and Obama, who has only worked as a social worker doesn't have the grasp on how business and government should work IMO. I hope he surrounds himself with those who do.

but look, obama could be ellected and the situation change for better. why to be so radical, everything the guys says is stupid, isnt right. i think the main idea of keep jobs and money inside usa for the americans is good.

See above - he needs a base to create those jobs and if he doesn't make the American business market friendly, those jobs aren't going to happen. Additionally the government can only create so many jobs before it too it burdened as a total welfare state.

but you forget, obama also waants to tax the imports to protect american industry so if you buy a german bmw or a japanese toyota, you gonna pay much more than buy a brick shaped malibu or a beautifull mustang. of couse its just a example over your previous example, but the idea is make americans buy more american stuff, american multinationals hire more american workers and the money keeps inside usa. isnt that good for you ?

It also keeps American products off foreign markets unless the US dollar is weak. There needs to be a balance and many democrats like Obama are social workers and activists, they don't know how to run businesses.

Something else you probably don't hear about in your part of the world - many of our local governments are running out of money because of the reasons I just described. In my local community the school board had a bond voted on in 2004 to fix the local schools (a bond is like a tax here). 4 years later the schools never got fixed and now they want another bond.

There are many "activists and social workers" who decide to get into local politics. Many of them can't balance their check book and even have gone bankrupt, but they want to run for public office and handle the public's money!

 

[JugBR]

Well since they are just monkeys, then I guess your right. Who cares.



Well if ramirezzz says its true it must be. They are part of Georgia! They are seperatists, but are part of Georgia. Just like your "monkeys" who want Amazonia. And guess what. Those "monkeys" are of a different ethnic group too.

So Jug is this a racist divide you profess?

indians are monkeys matt like you and me, charles darwin and the rest of mankind. but when i said monkeys, i was talking about monkeys really, not indians. you know that. thanx god in my family we have blacks and whites so... what can i say ?

i was just ironical because outside borders people says brazilians dont care about the amazon forrest , etc... wich is BS, but i wont spend time here explaining why. i dont need. the forrest is ours, we can burn that, we can preserve that, of course preserve is more wise than burn. but what country preserved their forrests ?

about ramirezzz. dimitri is russian, we are not, he knows better the history of their country and their local issues than you and me. i think his opinion is important since in bbc and cnn we just see the georgian side of story.

 

[Matt308]

i dont need. the forrest is ours, we can burn that, we can preserve that, of course preserve is more wise than burn. but what country preserved thair forrests ?
QUOTE]

Germany... Black Forest. And by learning from them, the US. This German conservation has served as the basis for virtually all US efforts of forest management.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion of Georgia vs russia.

 

[JugBR]

i dont need. the forrest is ours, we can burn that, we can preserve that, of course preserve is more wise than burn. but what country preserved thair forrests ?
QUOTE]

Germany... Black Forest. And by learning from them, the US. This German conservation has served as the basis for virtually all US efforts of forest management.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion of Georgia vs russia.

man inside amazon fits 2 germanys i was talking about real forrest lolll

back to the topic !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Uh... russia vs little Georgia? Where were we? If this thread continues to be sidetracked I'm gonna close it.

Agree - let's move it back....

 

[JugBR]

i think is better to close that too

 

[Ramirezzz]

American-Russian relations are going to fall anyhow. Not because of America but because of Putin.

They began to fall actually long time ago. And that was clearly not a process initialised by Putin - the roots of the ongoing conflict are back to late 90ies, when the NATO expansion took place. You see it as a quite acceptable process, we see it (and yes, I see it so as well) as a act which is clearly hostile towards Russia. In fact what both USA and Western Europe had to do afer fall of the Berlin Wall is to disband NATO. That would prevent much of todays problems.

He wants to see them fail, he wants to see Russia's return to a super power. He is willing to do so at all costs, even if it means starting a new cold war.

hey don't demonise him, nobody wants a second Cold War exept of some hawks both in US and Russian establishment. The message he tries to spread is rather "like it or not, we'll pursue our goals regardless your critic and politics just as you're (America) doing so in your sphere of interest. We wont give up our positions to you just like it was during the chaotic Yelzin times. Even at the cost of a new Cold War if the West wants it so. We are ready for going that far."
So you see ,what happens now is actually the both sides accuse each other of starting the new cold war, but nobody really wants it.

Just as you do not like Bush, I can not stand Putin. To me he is nothing more than a Commie. Me and my wife (she is German by the way, so you can not say that only Americans feel this way) had a discussion about this just this morning, and she can not stand him either.

I always wonder why so many in the West think of Putin as of being Commie. In fact nobody in Russia, and I mean really nobody, even some diehard opposition members considers him as being a communist .He was always highly critical to the communist regime in the Soviet Union and the current Russian Communist Party is very critical towards him, just like the democratic opposition is.
Or maybe anyone who opposes the West in some sensitive issues risks of being called a Commie? Please enlighten me Adler, I don't get the point!

I have news for you. Obama getting elected will not change a thing. Why? Putin...

You all love Obama, but it will not change a thing. I promise you that. Why, because the American public will not allow the United States to bow down to a Commie (yes that is how I view him).

THAT would change a lot. You know , as an American concetrated on domestic issues I would vote for McCain too. But as been said, for the russ-amer relations his election would be disastrous.
Why?
Because this guy is one of those neoconservative hawks acting in best traditions of the Theo Roosevelt gunboat diplomacy. This guy isn't able to make compromisses, in fact he doesn't want to make any. He is a hawk, a warrior , not a diplomat. His views on Russia were up-to-date in the 1960ies or 1970ies, but not in the late 2000ies. He is just not flexible enough.
We have some of his sort as well - and believe me ,Putin is by far not one of them . I do hope these guys wont take the upper hand in Russia very soon. That would be a dead end.

 

[Ramirezzz]

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ONE!!!

oh really?

Both Russian and Georgian (yes you know there were also some Georgian blue helmets as well) are UN acknowledged peacekeeping force.
UNOMIG's Mandate

the 1992 agreements of Dagomys( in Russian):
Äàãîìûññêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ

the 1994 agreement of Moscow(in Russian as well):

ÎÁ ÎÑÍÎÂÍÛÕ ÏÐÈÍÖÈÏÀÕ ÄÅßÒÅËÜÍÎÑÒÈ ÂÎÅÍÍÛÕ ÊÎÍÒÈÍÃÅÍÒÎÂ È ÃÐÓÏÏ ÂÎÅÍÍÛÕ ÍÀÁËÞÄÀÒÅËÅÉ, ÏÐÅÄÍÀÇÍÀ×ÅÍÍÛÕ ÄËß ÍÎÐÌÀËÈÇÀÖÈÈ ÑÈÒÓÀÖÈÈ Â ÇÎÍÅ

Heck, what if they decided on a whim to send "peacekeeping troops" into Brazil to make that happen?

Are you actually aware of the 1992 war? what happened there? Why are the peacekeeping troops there?

 

[Ramirezzz]

A lot of none Americans on this forum think they are so sure they know about my country...

Its like the hate Bush thing ...And not knowing the Dem's have control of Congrees ..And thats what counts in the US...We till some of the guys here over and over and over how "MY" country works and they keep saying the same thing...Gets old ...

You know it goes the other way round as well. There are also a lot of Americans who think they are so sure they know about the other countries . This particular thread here is just another confirmation of that.

 

[JugBR]

the most funny is that "you all love obama"

i dont love obama, i love my family, i love my country, as you love you family and loves your country herr adler. but we allways should have opinion about the issues and mine is obama is not an awesome guy, but he is much better than bush, by his ideas.

but if obama would make a speech here in campinas, i wouldnt go listen him, first because he is not from here, second because theres much more things interesting to do.

dont you guys think ossetia and abkhazia are too small excuses to start, or wants to start a second cold war ? is better that both regions becomes independent as fast as possible to end this issue before people starts digging out corpses from 40 years ago.

 

[Matt308]

oh really?

Both Russian and Georgian (yes you know there were also some Georgian blue helmets as well) are UN acknowledged peacekeeping force.
UNOMIG's Mandate

UNOMIG was originally established on 24 August 1993 by Security Council resolution 858 (1993) to verify compliance with the 27 July 1993 ceasefire agreement between the Government of Georgia and the Abkhaz authorities in Georgia with special attention to the situation in the city of Sukhumi; to investigate reports of ceasefire violations and to attempt to resolve such incidents with the parties involved; and to report to the Secretary-General on the implementation of its mandate, including, in particular, violations of the ceasefire agreement. The authorized strength of the Mission was 88 military observers.

After UNOMIG's original mandate had been invalidated by the resumed fighting in Abkhazia in September 1993, the Mission was given an interim mandate, by Security Council resolution 881 (1993) of 4 November 1993, to maintain contacts with both sides to the conflict and with Russian military contingent, and to monitor and report on the situation, with particular reference to developments relevant to United Nations efforts to promote a comprehensive political settlement. Following the signing, in May 1994, by the Georgian and Abkhaz sides of the Agreement on a Ceasefire and Separation of Forces, the Security Council, by its resolution 937 (1994) of 21 July 1994, authorized the increase in UNOMIG's strength to up to 136 military observers and decided that the mandate of an expanded Mission shall be as follows:

To monitor and verify the implementation by the parties of the Agreement on a Ceasefire and Separation of Forces signed in Moscow on 14 May 1994;
To observe the operation of the peacekeeping force of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) within the framework of the implementation of the Agreement;
To verify, through observation and patrolling, that troops of the parties do not remain in or re-enter the security zone and that heavy military equipment does not remain or is not reintroduced in the security zone or the restricted weapons zone;
To monitor the storage areas for heavy military equipment withdrawn from the security zone and the restricted weapons zone in cooperation with the CIS peacekeeping force as appropriate;
To monitor the withdrawal of troops of the Republic of Georgia from the Kodori Valley to places beyond the boundaries of Abkhazia, Republic of Georgia;
To patrol regularly the Kodori Valley;
To investigate, at the request of either party or the CIS peacekeeping force or on its own initiative, reported or alleged violations of the Agreement and to attempt to resolve or contribute to the resolution of such incidents;
To report regularly to the Secretary-General within its mandate, in particular on the implementation of the Agreement, any violations and their investigation by UNOMIG, as well as other relevant developments;
To maintain close contacts with both parties to the conflict and to cooperate with the CIS peacekeeping force and, by its presence in the area, to contribute to conditions conducive to the safe and orderly return of refugees and displaced persons.
The United Nations office for the protection and promotion of human rights in Abkhazia, Georgia (HROAG) , was established on 10 December 1996 in accordance with Security Council resolution 1077 (1996) of 22 October 1996. It is jointly staffed by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The Human Rights Office forms part of UNOMIG and reports to the High Commissioner for Human Rights through the Head of Mission of UNOMIG.

Most recently the mandate of UNOMIG was extended until 15 October 2008 by Security Council resolution 1808 (15 April 2008).


Where in there does it state that these 136 "observers" can mushroom into hundreds of APCs/tanks/strike/bomber aircraft can take action without further UN resolution? Exactly where Ramirezzz?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Are you actually aware of the 1992 war? what happened there? Why are the peacekeeping troops there?

I am - I think you seen me mention this in earlier posts and probably why I agree with a lot of what you are saying.