German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb

[GrauGeist]

Maybe we should rephrase the OP to '. . . that could deliver a 5000-10,000 lb bomb'. If a plane can deliver a bomb that size, then obviously it could be used to deliver a 'the bomb' of that size, regardless of whether there were any reason to think there was a possibility a German A-bomb. (Which there is not.)

First, we have to look at the logistics based on what actually happened.
The U.S. had an entire composite wing of bombers all similarly outfitted. This was not one or two aircraft, but several dozen.

This alone would exclude quite a few German types, as they either did not have that many or could not produce enough in time to create a comparable operation.

Next, we have to ask who they were going to bomb?
The U.S. simply cannot be done. Then who?
Britain? That won't stop the war (it may slow them down, but not stop them).
The Soviets? If you try that, you better have more than three like the U.S. did, because the Red Army will keep coming - Stalingrad may as well have been nuked for all it did to stop the Russians.

So to what end would a German atomic bomb have been any good?

 

[ThomasP]

We talked about it a little bit in another thread:"Long range Luftwaffe bomber: attack on the USA"

That is still the only probable serious effect that I can come up with, assuming the Germans did not actually have the A-bomb(s). If they did develop the A-bomb, and they could deliver it effectively . . . then it would (I think) depend mainly on when they got the bomb. Which brings up the question, just what is the time frame we are talking about? (If we are going to continue the having the A-bomb part as part of this discussion.)

 

[JEANBatten]

a 1000kg gadget would not be ready until the late 50's. Assume Little Boy class, 5000kg. Perhaps a U-boat delivery off shore was the only option

US nuclear physicists did not know how to miniaturize A-Bombs until Nazi scientist Kurt Deibner in 1948 taught them how Schumann & Trinks managed it Referring to operation"Teacup"

 

[ThomasP]

Hey JEANBatten,

No Deibner did not, no Schumann & Trinks did not, and there was no Operation Teacup.

 

[swampyankee]

US nuclear physicists did not know how to miniaturize A-Bombs until Nazi scientist Kurt Deibner in 1948 taught them how Schumann & Trinks managed it Referring to operation"Teacup"

Do remember the nazis forced many of their best and brightest to leave the country. Or they killed them

 

[RCAFson]

Dr Norman Ramsey was the man tasked with designing the atomic bomb casings and in finding a suitable aircraft for testing and actual delivery. It is very clear from the historical record that Ramsey favoured the Lancaster, and that his research led him to conclude that only two Allied bombers were suitable to carry the proposed weapons, the B-29 and the Lancaster. Ramsey conferred with Roy Chadwick, the designer of the Lancaster and showed him drawings of the proposed bomb casings including FAT MAN, the implosion bomb, and was assured by Chadwick that the Lancaster could accommodate either bomb design:

"The person at Los Alamos with who, Wilson primarily worked was Norman F. Ramsey.
Ramsey, son of an army officer, received a Ph.D. in physics from Columbia in 1939, and
was drafted to work at the MTT Radiation Lab the following year."" After some time in
Cambridge he came to Washington to work in Stimson's office on Army Alr Forces
projects for Edward Lindley Bowles, a consultant to the secretary. Ramsey's combination of
expertise in physics and aerodynamics made him a prime candidate for Los Alamos. After
an effective recruitment appeal by Oppenheimer in March 1943, Ramsey agreed to foin the
project. Oppenheimer left t to Groves o get Stimson to agree to release Ramsey. This took
several months, because Bowles refused to let him go. Bowles and Groves were both used to
getting their way, and who would get Ramsey turned into a matter of prestige and power.
To men in powerful positions losing a bureaucratic battle, even a small one, could mean
Losing others in the future, and that must not be allowed to happen. Rather than push it to
the hilt, Bowles found a way out by asking Ramsey what he wanted to do. Ramsey said he
thought he should go to Los Alamos. To allow Bowles to save face Ramsey continued as a
consultant from the secretary of war's offce and was not an employee of the University of
California, Los Alamos's contractor.

Ramsey was assigned to head the Delivery Group of the Ordnance Division and later
served as deputy to Pasion." His immediate tasks were to design the bomb casings that
would carry the gun-assembly bomb and implosion bomb. By the end of 1943 it had
already been established that the gun-type bomb-Thin Man-would weigh on the order
of five tons. Ramsey assumed that the implosion bomb would weigh approximately the
same. Given their size and weight, there were only two possible choices for an aircraft to
deliver the weapons, the British Lancaster or the American B-29, which had begun
production in September.

Ramsey favored the Lancaster and traveled to Canada in early October 1943 to meet Roy
Chadwick, the plane's chief designer, Chadwick was in Canada to observe the initial
Lancasters coming off the production line at the Victory Aircraft Works, Milton Airdrome,
in Toronto. Ramsey showed Chadwick preliminary sketches of the large-thin-shaped and
stubby shaped-bombs and later wrote with more details.(12) Chadwick assured Ramsey that
the Lencaster could accommodate them.

When Ramsey returned, he wrote to Parsons suggesting that the Lancaster be seriously
considered and planned a memo to General Groves recommending that a modified
Lancaster be used.(13)The bomb bay was thirty-three feet long and sixty-one inches wide.
The depth was only thirty-eight inches, but this could be modified. The Lancaster's ceiling
was 27,000 feet, its speed 285 miles per hour, and takeoff required only 3,750 feet of runway
-a critical matter wherever it would be based.

Groves had not been Informed about Ramsey's preference and was at a loss for words
when he found out. It was beyond comprehension that Ramsey could consider using a
British plane to deliver an American atomic bomb. Needless to say, Groves found an ally in
General Arnold when he discussed. this matter with him. The new Boeing B29
Superfortress would carry the atomic bomb.

The first production B-29s were produced at the Boeing-Wichita plant beginning in
September 1943. One was chosen to be modified; by December 1 it was at Wright Feld for
two months of modifications. The modifications were originally called Silver Plated. but
this was soon shortened to Siverplate. On the same day General Arnold's office informed
the commanding general, Material Command, that Siverplate modifications should be
given "the greatest possible priority." The two bomb bays were made into one, and the four
twelve-foot bomb bay doors were replaced by two. twenty-seven-foot pneumatically
operated doors. At this point the length of the Thin Man bomb was expected to be at least
seventeen feet. Racks, bracing, and hoists were installed, long with the release mechanism
and mounts for a motion picture camera to record training drops.

On February 20, 1944, the first hand-modified Silverplate B-29 flew from Wright Fld to
Muros Army Air Base (now Edwards AFB) in the Mojave Desert of California. Drop tests
of the Thin Man and Fat Man dummy bombs began on March ."" Many problems were
encountered and corrected, The ballistics for the Thin Man had been partially worked out
at Dahlgren, where scale-model tests were conducted. The bulbous Fat Man shape was
another matter it proved more difficult over the next year to find the correct tall structure
design to prevent it from wobbling. As the analysts sought their solution, they made
another discovery The standard tailfins used on air force aerial bombs seemed to have a
flaw, which caused some of the fins to collapse as the bomb reached terminal velocity. This
had an obvious effect on accuracy and would have been of great interest to the Ordnance
Department. But when this information was passed on to Groves he suppressed it, not
wanting to compromise security It took another year for the Ordnance Department to find
out.

As the tests continued, further modifications and refinements were made to the aircraft
to arrive at a final standard. These mainly had to do with the bomb bay and the various
frames, hoists, braces, and release assemblies that could handle the four-and five-ton
bombs. One major change was to adopt a single lug to suspend the heavy bomb rather than
twin release lugs, which had caused problems. Once premature release of a seventy-three
hundred-pound Thin Man caused severe damage to the bomb bay doors of the single B-29
in March. After repairs were made, testing resumed in mid-June.

By the summer of 1944 the design was fairly firm, and on August 23 the Glenn L. Martin
-Nebraska Company received the contract to modify the first three B-29s of a total of
twenty-four-and selected its Fort Crook Modification Center in Omaha as the program
site. The delivery schedule was three planes by the end of September, the next eleven by
the end of the year, and the final en in January 1945, The initial fourteen were slated for
test and training, with the other ten assigned as the combat unit. As with most parts of the
Manhattan Project, schedules were accelerated and quantities increased. In February the
number of Silverplate B-29s was increased to forty-eight, and on April 18 to fifty-three-
fifty-four counting the hand-modified Muroc plane. As Los Alamos continued to change
and refine its design for the bombs, new instructions were repeatedly sent to modify the
bombers. By the end of the war forty-six planes had been completed.

(12). Norman F, Ramsey Jr. to Roy Chadwick, October 23, 1943, Folder Dr. Norman Ramsey, Box 6,
Tolman Files, RG 227/81, NARA.

(13). Memo, N. F, Ramsey to Capt. W. . Parsons, October 14, 1943, Lancaster Aircraft, Folder Dr Norman Ramsey... NARA
" (Norris, pages 316-317 Racing for the Bomb)

 

[Peter Gunn]

US nuclear physicists did not know how to miniaturize A-Bombs until Nazi scientist Kurt Deibner in 1948 taught them how Schumann & Trinks managed it Referring to operation"Teacup"

 

[swampyankee]

US nuclear physicists did not know how to miniaturize A-Bombs until Nazi scientist Kurt Deibner in 1948 taught them how Schumann & Trinks managed it Referring to operation"Teacup"

1) Citation required
2) Considering how far away the nazis were from developing an atomic weapon -- they were barely in the right part of the periodic table -- it's somewhat incredible that a nazi scientist could help them with much more than picking the right color paint.

 

[SaparotRob]

Perhaps we could sponsor an expedition to that secret base in the Antarctic to get to the truth of the matter?

 

[rochie]

1) Citation required
2) Considering how far away the nazis were from developing an atomic weapon -- they were barely in the right part of the periodic table -- it's somewhat incredible that a nazi scientist could help them with much more than picking the right color paint.

Boom, Head shot !

 

[GrauGeist]

I suggest reading this article: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4202 in order to fully understand where the Germans were at with their nuclear program.
Key points to look for are: Uranium versus Enriched Uranium and lack of co-operation between the teams of Scientists.

 

[SaparotRob]

I suggest reading this article: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4202 in order to fully understand where the Germans were at with their nuclear program.
Key points to look for are: Uranium versus Enriched Uranium and lack of co-operation between the teams of Scientists.

Very informative link. It was written simply enough so that I could understand it. Thanks for the post.

 

[JEANBatten]

1) Citation required
2) Considering how far away the nazis were from developing an atomic weapon -- they were barely in the right part of the periodic table -- it's somewhat incredible that a nazi scientist could help them with much more than picking the right color paint.

1:citation Go & read Hitler's Bombe, by historian journalist Rainer Karlshe:
Hitler's Bombe

2: Whilst I am myself, quite scornful of Heisenburg's relevance he did none the less develop MATRIX mechanics which utterly refutes your dismissive jibe:

Quantum Matrix mechanics

Heisenburg himself was incompetent in calculating the Uranium neutron free path (ie average distance which a free neutron could travel in Uranium before striking another atom)
However you are clearly unaware that Nazi physicist Dr Paul Houtermanns published the correct mean free path for Uranium & Plutonium in "Zer Frage der Auslosung" (Nov 1941) pp 31,33 (Oak Ridge G-94, pp.139) 1944 reprint of this report with omissions is (Oak Ridge G-267, pp.33)

Manhattan scientists themselves only identified the existence of Plutonium239 in 1941, however THE italian Fermi had discovered it in 1934. In Germany Plutonium was known as "Ek Osmium" Nazi scientists already knew the natural critical mass for detonating Uranium & Plutonium in 1941!

https://www.radioactivity.eu.com/site/pages/Plutonium_239.htm

Point being: think what you like about Heisenberg's incompetence, but many Nazi nuclear scientists were already much smarter than Manhattan Project scientists

Schumann filed a viable patent for a Z Pinch nuclear warhead in WW2. then after the war he taught the French how to make nuclear weapons.
If you are only considering how far away Heisenberg wasfrom developing an atomic weapon, you are considering the wrong picture.

 

[JEANBatten]

No it isn't, you cannot make a nuclear bomb that weighs a bit more than a big girls hand bag. If you want to show me handbag sized nuclear weapons from the 1940s I am very interested but I know, since I worked as a qualified radiographer, that such technology in ionising radiation didn't exist in the 1940s and actually doesn't exist now.

Schumann& Trinks both worked on a project with Dr Otto Haxel from 1941 in which silver spheres filled with Deuterium were crushed by hollow charge explosives to measure the radioactivity produced. Historian Rainer Karlsch located a wartime patent for your handbag sized nuclear weapon. Whilst in American captivity Herman Goering famously used a defence how could he be a war criminal when he had a 5 kilogram nuclear warhead and chose not to use it?

 

[pbehn]

Schumann& Trinks both worked on a project with Dr Otto Haxel from 1941 in which silver spheres filled with Deuterium were crushed by hollow charge explosives to measure the radioactivity produced. Historian Rainer Karlsch located a wartime patent for your handbag sized nuclear weapon. Whilst in American captivity Herman Goering famously used a defence how could he be a war criminal when he had a 5 kilogram nuclear warhead and chose not to use it?

View attachment 598862

What was the yield of the bomb and what was the level of radiation emission. A 90 curie cobalt pellet requires 11Kg of depleted uranium to make it safe to use.

 

[JEANBatten]

A adapted He 177 would work

The He177 V38 (prototype #38) was being modified to carry a nuclear bomb near Prague when the war ended according to documents found at the location.
The Ju287 four engine jet bomber had a bomb bay built with identical dimensions as V38 had

German lawyer & historical researcher, Dirk Finkemeier (who fought law suit in German courts about wartime radioactive contamination) contacted me about evidence he had found with his researcher Major Keith Sanders (retired) relating to the German A-bomb. He had US archival documents relating to the 76 Zentner which was a 3.8 tonne Uranium Atomic bomb captured by US 9th Army in an underground laboratory on 26 April 1945 near Goslar. Keith Sanders located documents at the Library of Congress relating to the bomb being recovered by B-24 bomber back to Boston USA, where Dirk asserts it was converted for a B-29 bomb raid over Hiroshima.

When I first heard this claim I could not believe it, however delving into the low level of Uranium enrichment at Oak Ridge in 1945, it became more plausible than the Hiroshima bomb being US made.

He177V38
Ju287

 

[JEANBatten]

What was the yield of the bomb and what was the level of radiation emission. A 90 curie cobalt pellet requires 11Kg of depleted uranium to make it safe to use.

Since COBOLT 60 has nothing to do with the Nazi boosted fission weapon your little tidbit of information relating to your limited training in use of X-rays has no relevance

 

[Tkdog]

It's about weight Jean.

It's been speculated that Heisenberg's "incompetence" was deliberate. That he was actively, albeit quietly, disrupting and slowing any effort in Germany to develop atomic weapons. Which would be the only rational course he could really take once he couldn't really escape with his family.

Two observations. I suspect Jean is our corespondent who first advanced these seemingly pro-Nazi comments from earlier in the thread. Secondly, I think this has tread far enough into science fiction for the thread to be ended. The link Jean posted above seems to be the worst sort of tripe.

 

[nuuumannn]

Propellorhead, this:
Is 100% false.

Hey Dave, that quote was mine and referred to Ju 290s, not 390s, but otherwise I agree with your analysis completely.

 

[JEANBatten]

Very informative link. It was written simply enough so that I could understand it. Thanks for the post.

The Germans developed Uranium centrifuge technology during WW2 , something the Manhatten Project never mastered