vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Look at the reasons behind each case, rather than trying to generalize. And then from those specific cases, try and draw the parrallel with Gibraltar.
Firstly, the example you cited originally. Facts are it fell easily, but for what reason. As you say, it fell to new techniques and weapons, specifically airborne troops and hollow charge explosives. Neither weapon had been anticipated in th original design, and the 1300 defenders were thoroughly demoralised from the very beginning
I'm not sure what you base the defenders being thoroughly demoralised on but IMHO the most important factor in the attack was the simple fact nobody thought it was possible.
The Fall of Eben Emael by Annand states that the fort was considered the strongest in the world.
In regards to the other forts you keep bringing up (not me), you commented in post #9:
True, but forts also have had their success. Brest Litovsk, Sevastopol, Hango, Corregidor, Maginot, Tobruk, all had some success. Eban Emmanuel was one case, a special case, and a rather thin case to make against a 300 year old fortress
If the purpose of this thread is to debate whether Gb could have been taken by the Germans or not (unless I have gone out on a tangent which I'll admit I've been known to do) I'm not sure how bringing up some of the other major fortresses that were taken by the enemy is relevant. The fact it took longer for some of them to fall doesn't matter unless we are talking about Germany taking Gb within a time frame. The fact is those that were labeled as "impossible to take" were taken.
Your logic is very akin to the attitude taken by the French in the opening days of WWI. They disdained the need to entrench, to dig in, preferring to rely on the elan of the troops to carry them forward and win the battle. The french army soon abandoned that disastrous policy and were digging in cowering in their increasingly sophisticated fortresses as the war progressed
Please explain to me how you derived this about by my statement:
"They also said the same thing about Fort Eben Emael and it was knocked it in less then an hour.
If man can build it, he can also conquer it."
I challenge you to find any post I have ever made that stated fortresses were usless or digging in a waste of time.
I could continue, but you get the drift I think The reasons for a probable defeat need to be examined and put forward, rather than just mouthing dogma that is essentially unsupported. Tell people why you think Gibraltar would fall, or why forts are not of any use to a defence, rather than making generalised statements about how all forts can be taken.
You can't be serious. You got all of this from my statement:
"They also said the same thing about Fort Eben Emael and it was knocked it in less then an hour.
If man can build it, he can also conquer it."
I agree that given the right conditions, a fort can be taken, but can those conditions be realistically generated in 1941? I cant see how they could.
So you blast me for making a statement that "If man can build, he can also conquer it", but then go to state that you agree if given the right conditions a fort can be taken. Huh?
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But I'm willing to be an armchair general and take a whack at it.
The axis powers for 2 straight weeks day and night use incendiaries and heavy ordinance to bomb Gb to try and deprive the defenders of sleep. On the final day a German captured allied ship filled with fuel docks in the main harbor.
A few hours later at dusk an emergency message is sent from 2 twin-engine cargo aircraft that they are under attack and need to make an emergency landing – one of them visibly has an engine on fire. They are Jewish scientists (or somebody else) who have escaped with their wives and families from Vichy France. Pursuers turn around and the aircraft land on the runway. Out step German soldiers discussed as women and old men. At that point, the "allied ship" is detonated and either explodes or at least burns fiercely hopefully blinding AA gunners and lighting the way for the Germans. Soldiers from the 2 cargo aircraft pour out and secure the airport/runway. Paratroopers start to land and reinforce the troops already there (I've seen Gb and I do think it's possible to land paratroopers there). Then Gliders proceed to land. What's left of the harbor is now secured. Additional troops are landed via cargo U-Boats filled with men and equipment. The main German troop ships that were waiting nearby in Spanish harbors disguised as neutrals now set sail and arrive within a half hour.
I would prefer to have used the Fa 223 (helicopter transport) for surprise but it would not have been available at best until 42.