syscom3
Pacific Historian
Exactly. The Spitfire was a remarkable aircraft for the first part of the war. But when it was time to take the fight to the axis powers, the P38, P51 and F4U filled the role.
Greatest Fighter Aircraft of All Time
- Thread starter 102first_hussars
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Are you saying the Spitfire didn't take much of a role after 1940? Or that it even saw any axis aircraft?
The Spitfire took the fight to the axis throughout the war. In every theatre of war from the Asian Steppes to Burma, from North Africa to Great Britain the Spitfire fought every single Axis nation with great distinction.
The Spitfire took the fight to the axis throughout the war. In every theatre of war from the Asian Steppes to Burma, from North Africa to Great Britain the Spitfire fought every single Axis nation with great distinction.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The Spitfires claim to glory rapidly faded from the scene towards the end of 1943. After the P38's were flying their missions, and the P47's got their long range drop tanks, the fight was brought into the Reich. At that point, the Spitfire role was more or less "sloppy seconds".
When the P51's were deployed in quantity, the role for the Spit was pushed aside even further.
In the PTO (including the CBI), it was a marginal player. The extra long ranges precluded its use for any lasting effect.
I will say it was the greatest fighter up to middle 1943. After that, it was far from it.
When the P51's were deployed in quantity, the role for the Spit was pushed aside even further.
In the PTO (including the CBI), it was a marginal player. The extra long ranges precluded its use for any lasting effect.
I will say it was the greatest fighter up to middle 1943. After that, it was far from it.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
well syscom i wish you better luck in this discussion then your one on the B24
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Well, tell me how many Spitfire sorties there were over Germany in 1944?
How many Spitfire sorties in the PTO between New Guinie and Rabaul?
How many Spitfire kills were there of the Luftwaffe in 1944 and 1945?
Like I said, an excellent plane whos time came and went when the long range fighters took to the air.
Plus I more than proved my point about the B24. Still tied with the Lanc for 2nd best.
How many Spitfire sorties in the PTO between New Guinie and Rabaul?
How many Spitfire kills were there of the Luftwaffe in 1944 and 1945?
Like I said, an excellent plane whos time came and went when the long range fighters took to the air.
Plus I more than proved my point about the B24. Still tied with the Lanc for 2nd best.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
how many P51 38 and 47s were scrambled or flew Cap to cover the build up of Overlord forces from 42 to 44 ? how many took part in the largest air battle in the west at Dieppe? Each one of the fighters in this discussion was was a great fighter but in all reality the Luftwaffe in 44/45 was spent force the glory days of the Luftwaffe were over and had been since the end of 43 not to knock the tenacity and courage of any of the pilots
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The Luftwaffe was eliminated as a force by the P38/P47/P51.
And the only reason the Spitfire had the CAP over England was it couldnt do anything else.
Range means a lot and when you cant fly to where the fight is, then youre not contributing much.
And the only reason the Spitfire had the CAP over England was it couldnt do anything else.
Range means a lot and when you cant fly to where the fight is, then youre not contributing much.
If the Spitfire didn't have the range to engage the Luftwaffe? How were the Luftwaffe encountering Spitfires? Must have been some kind of ...well, I just don't know what. All those reports of Spitfire encounters must have been against Mustangs and Lightnings. All those Spitfire VIIIs over Burma couldn't have been there, it's just not true. Those Spitfire Vs and IXs flying over Russia must have just been made up. The Spitfire XIVs that the Luftwaffe hated, must have just been Western propaganda 'cos it could have NEVER engaged the Luftwaffe.
And what about North Africa and Italy? And don't tell me the Spitfire took the most pictures of Europe ... because that's just a big lie too.
And what about North Africa and Italy? And don't tell me the Spitfire took the most pictures of Europe ... because that's just a big lie too.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
If push came to shove I would say the luftwaffe was probably more abused on the Eastern front then on the Western front maybe the fact the Luftwaffe was not present on the Channel or North Sea is a statement about the prowess of the guys who flew the Spits and how many stragglers of the daylight raids were saved by the Spits yes range means a lot and the guys who escorted the B17s til Sept/Oct 43 to the German border probably wish they could have gone further but please don't mock their contribution as little
syscom3
Pacific Historian
But their were no Spitfires flying past the Netherlands and Belgium untill airfields in France were established. The early P47's had a similar range issue untill the long range drop tanks were available. P38's and P51's never had this issue and simply flew deep into Germany and fought the Luftwaffe where they were.
The best fighter is the one that can bring fly to the fight where ever it is and hold its own. While the P38's and P51's were flying over Berlin, the Spits were waiting over the Channel wishing they could get into the fight.
But if the Spit had the range issue solved, then why were none of them being used for the bomber escorts?
And the Spitfires performce in the CBI was decidedly "so-so". It simply didnt have the range required to fly where the main action was, and that was in the Solomons and New Guinie.
Like I said, it was perhaps the best fighter int he first half of the war, but was quickly outclassed by other types.
The best fighter is the one that can bring fly to the fight where ever it is and hold its own. While the P38's and P51's were flying over Berlin, the Spits were waiting over the Channel wishing they could get into the fight.
But if the Spit had the range issue solved, then why were none of them being used for the bomber escorts?
And the Spitfires performce in the CBI was decidedly "so-so". It simply didnt have the range required to fly where the main action was, and that was in the Solomons and New Guinie.
Like I said, it was perhaps the best fighter int he first half of the war, but was quickly outclassed by other types.
The Spitfire was flying over France escorting bombers, where the Luftwaffe was still in operation. The Spitfires in the Soviet Union were operating against the Luftwaffe there. The Spitfires in North Africa were operating against the Luftwaffe there. The Spitfires in Italy were operating against the Luftwaffe there. There were Spitfires over Belgium and Holland.
And the Spitfires in the CBI attained a 8:1 kill:loss ratio. That is not "so-so" ...
And the Spitfires in the CBI attained a 8:1 kill:loss ratio. That is not "so-so" ...
syscom3
Pacific Historian
But there were no Spitfires flying over Germany.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
dude everyone proved you wrong on that one! we all agreed the lanc was outright second you provided no real argument, but this isn't the place for this, go back to the bomber threads if you want to carry this on.........
pD's already said there were, heck even i've heard about spits over germany..............
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
Dude! the Spit must have been HORRIBLE and not have deserved a place as one of the greatest fighters of WW2 if it cant just go from France to Germany.
this is the wrong place for a lanc, it deserves the place as one of the greatest BOMBERS
and Spitifres were also used as bomber escorts alot earlier, prolly during the luft's glory days
this is the wrong place for a lanc, it deserves the place as one of the greatest BOMBERS
and Spitifres were also used as bomber escorts alot earlier, prolly during the luft's glory days
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
yes spits escorted early light bomber raids into france and some of the low countries early in the war, and the spits DID escort daylight raids later in the war, the reason you don't hear about them much is because the RAF flew most bombing sorties by night later in the war, how do you propose a primarily day fighter escorts a lanc to berlin at night? that's why we had mossies..........
They also did Rhubarbs and such like over France in 1941-43...
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
they helped out the lancs when they were doing some gardening too........
(i wonder how long we can keep a conversation going with RAF slang)
(i wonder how long we can keep a conversation going with RAF slang
)Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Without recieving some major boosts to internal fuel, the Spitfire couldn't of made a long range escort like the P-51/P-38 and to a lesser extent the P-47.
But, by the middle of 1944, with the fitting of wing tanks, rear fuselage tanks and enlarged foward tanks, Spitfires had double their internal fuel capacity, and with the fitting of external tanks its range had increased by around 250%. Spitfires VIIs were running 4 hour long daylight escort missions by mid 1943.
Did it turn into a long range escort fighter? No, of course not. But its not as useless in the post '43 ETO/PTO/MTO as syscom would have us believe.
Similarly, while the Spitfire couldn't operate effectively over Germany as a long range escort in 1944, the P-51 could hardly of fulfilled the role of point interceptor that the Spitfire played over Britain in 1940, Malta in 1942 and over the Continent in the post D-Day period.
Its really a case of design priorities. Spitfires were designed as short ranged point interceptors. The P-51 was designed for long range operations.
The Spitfire pushed the LuftWaffe back into France and then kept it there. Can you imagine the USAAF trying to to build up its first mass bomber formations in late 1942 and 1943 without the RAF running constant interference? Or getting masses groups of P-51s, P-47s and P-38s into the air without the RAF controling British airspace?
The excellence of the Spitfire and the dedication of the RAF allowed the USAAF to concentrate on destroying the LUftWaffe. Someone else was running defence, so they could concentrate on offence. If the USAAF were forced to defend their own airspace, do you think they could of projected power nearly as effectively as they did?
But, by the middle of 1944, with the fitting of wing tanks, rear fuselage tanks and enlarged foward tanks, Spitfires had double their internal fuel capacity, and with the fitting of external tanks its range had increased by around 250%. Spitfires VIIs were running 4 hour long daylight escort missions by mid 1943.
Did it turn into a long range escort fighter? No, of course not. But its not as useless in the post '43 ETO/PTO/MTO as syscom would have us believe.
Similarly, while the Spitfire couldn't operate effectively over Germany as a long range escort in 1944, the P-51 could hardly of fulfilled the role of point interceptor that the Spitfire played over Britain in 1940, Malta in 1942 and over the Continent in the post D-Day period.
Its really a case of design priorities. Spitfires were designed as short ranged point interceptors. The P-51 was designed for long range operations.
The Spitfire pushed the LuftWaffe back into France and then kept it there. Can you imagine the USAAF trying to to build up its first mass bomber formations in late 1942 and 1943 without the RAF running constant interference? Or getting masses groups of P-51s, P-47s and P-38s into the air without the RAF controling British airspace?
The excellence of the Spitfire and the dedication of the RAF allowed the USAAF to concentrate on destroying the LUftWaffe. Someone else was running defence, so they could concentrate on offence. If the USAAF were forced to defend their own airspace, do you think they could of projected power nearly as effectively as they did?
Of course not which is why the defence of British Airspace was just as important if not more important than the offensive action against the Luftwaffe undertaken by the USAAF. For what it did the Spitfire was (and is) a great aircraft.
