Greatest Fighter Aircraft of All Time

[evangilder]

Good points guys. Let's not forget that a lot of the American fighters were designed or altered based on lessons learned by the British.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and in some cases even went as far as using british engines with british engineers high up in the design stages

but to say that interceptors were not needed over south england post '41 is rubbish, as has been said the raiders that would otherwise have caused havoc amoung the formating bombers had to be kept out, which is what the RAF, and more specifically the spitfire did, the LW still had fighters based in northern france, as long as they were there there was a threat......

 

[syscom3]

......Spitfires VIIs were running 4 hour long daylight escort missions by mid 1943....

There is no evidence they escorted 8th AF bombers past the low countries. They had the same range restrictions as the P47's.

.....as useless in the post '43 ETO/PTO/MTO as syscom would have us believe...

It was the best allied fighter up to the end of 1943. Then its role as carrying the fight to the Luftwaffe was over as the long range P51's and P38's went where the Spit (and P47) couldnt. It's obvious its glory days were eclipsed.

Similarly, while the Spitfire couldn't operate effectively over Germany as a long range escort in 1944, the P-51 could hardly of fulfilled the role of point interceptor that the Spitfire played over Britain in 1940, Malta in 1942 and over the Continent in the post D-Day period.

The P38 always had a phenominal rate of climb. This was its origionally designed role. In 1943, it could have been easily used as an interceptor if it had been made available for that mission.

Plus as Ive said before, the Spit was the best allied fighter in 1940-through most of 1943.

Its really a case of design priorities. Spitfires were designed as short ranged point interceptors. The P-51 was designed for long range operations.

In 1944 and 1945, the air war had changed where the allied requirement for interceptors were way back on the list. Once the long range fighters were chasing the Luftwaffe all over Germany and Poland, the Spitfire was way in back waiting for an occasional and inconsequential German intruder.

The Spitfire pushed the LuftWaffe back into France and then kept it there. Can you imagine the USAAF trying to to build up its first mass bomber formations in late 1942 and 1943 without the RAF running constant interference? Or getting masses groups of P-51s, P-47s and P-38s into the air without the RAF controling British airspace?

There were no "mass" 8th AF bomber formations untill summer of 1943. In fact, there were also few P47 groups to go with them. It really wasnt untill Jan/Feb 1944 that the AAF had enough P38's and P51's to penetrate deep into Germany.

As Ive said plenty of times, the Spitfire was the best allied fighter up to the end of 1943. After that time, its role was becoming more and more irrelevant.

The excellence of the Spitfire and the dedication of the RAF allowed the USAAF to concentrate on destroying the LUftWaffe. Someone else was running defence, so they could concentrate on offence. If the USAAF were forced to defend their own airspace, do you think they could of projected power nearly as effectively as they did?

In 1944, there was a flood of 8th, 9th, 12th and 15th AF fighters. The fighters of all these AF's brought the fight to the Luftwaffe and kept them bottled up. Where the allied bombers were flying, so will you find the Luftwaffe.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

There were no "mass" 8th AF bomber formations untill summer of 1943. In fact, there were also few P47 groups to go with them. It really wasnt untill Jan/Feb 1944 that the AAF had enough P38's and P51's to penetrate deep into Germany.

he wasn't refering to the spits escorting the bombers, he was talking about spits in the interceptor role keeping german raiders from northern france from entering british airspace and reaking havoc in the formating bombers, imagine the trouble a handful of -190s could cause if they got into the bombers amoungst the chaos of the formation, why is it that they didn't do this? because of the RAF keeping them out.........

 

[syscom3]

Up to the end of 1943, the Spits did a great job doing this. In 1944, there were plenty of 8th and 9th AF fighters to also do interception work if required.

In fact, you can make an argument that the P38 would have been superior to the Spitfire for the interception role as its endurance was so much higher, it could climb to altitude and wait for the incoming German planes than to have to stay on the ground and then scramble.

 

[pbfoot]

yes they became a force to be reckoned with but probably lacked experienced aircrew to man the force except for those that cut their teeth with RAF/RCAF many of the top US pilots trained with the RCAF

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it could climb to altitude and wait for the incoming German planes than to have to stay on the ground and then scramble

the reason for the frantic scrables was not because the pilots thought they didn't have much fuel so wanted to stay on the ground as long as possible, it was simply because they didn't get much warning, france is only a few miles away, that means you aint gonna get much warning, as soon as incoming raiders were spotted, fighters were scrabled, P-38s would've got no more warning than spits, in fact they proberly would've got less because of all the extra channels it had to get through to get to the americans, the british got warnings straight from the horse's mouth, we were the horse's mouth!

 

[syscom3]

yes they became a force to be reckoned with but probably lacked experienced aircrew to man the force except for those that cut their teeth with RAF/RCAF many of the top US pilots trained with the RCAF

Even the RAF had rookies that needed experience.

 

[syscom3]

the reason for the frantic scrables was not because the pilots thought they didn't have much fuel so wanted to stay on the ground as long as possible, it was simply because they didn't get much warning, france is only a few miles away, that means you aint gonna get much warning, as soon as incoming raiders were spotted, fighters were scrabled, P-38s would've got no more warning than spits, in fact they proberly would've got less because of all the extra channels it had to get through to get to the americans, the british got warnings straight from the horse's mouth, we were the horse's mouth!

Not true. The P38's could have been up at altitude loitering around for 6 to 7 hours at a time and then pounced on the incoming aircrfat. the Spits didnt have that type of endurance. And extra time to scramble fighters becaus eof communication channels? Ummmm...... ever heard of placing a telephone into the P38 base operations center? And then why worry about scrambling times when your P38 is already up at altitude and only needs to be vectored into position.

 

[pbfoot]

I'm not sure the radios or frequencies were compatable plus the time involved in upgrading the crews and a/c to work within the RAf system the compatability issue is still with us today as for your previous post about air combat in the PTO the USAAF from mid 43 til the end of hostilities only accounted for 501 a/c destroyed 370 in the air and 131 on the ground the USN was the major force

 

[syscom3]

I'm not sure the radios or frequencies were compatable plus the time involved in upgrading the crews and a/c to work within the RAf system the compatability issue is still with us today as for your previous post about air combat in the PTO the USAAF from mid 43 til the end of hostilities only accounted for 501 a/c destroyed 370 in the air and 131 on the ground the USN was the major force

I'm not sure about your numbers. Theyre way to low for the AAF.

And even if your numbers are correct, so what? The Spitfire was not the type of fighter you wanted in the SW Pacific.

Radio issues? Not very hard to correct is it. "Upgrading" the crews? What makes you think they needed to be upgraded?

 

[Gnomey]

the reason for the frantic scrables was not because the pilots thought they didn't have much fuel so wanted to stay on the ground as long as possible, it was simply because they didn't get much warning, france is only a few miles away, that means you aint gonna get much warning, as soon as incoming raiders were spotted, fighters were scrabled, P-38s would've got no more warning than spits, in fact they proberly would've got less because of all the extra channels it had to get through to get to the americans, the british got warnings straight from the horse's mouth, we were the horse's mouth!

Not true. The P38's could have been up at altitude loitering around for 6 to 7 hours at a time and then pounced on the incoming aircrfat. the Spits didnt have that type of endurance. And extra time to scramble fighters becaus eof communication channels? Ummmm...... ever heard of placing a telephone into the P38 base operations center? And then why worry about scrambling times when your P38 is already up at altitude and only needs to be vectored into position.

So what the P-38's could of been loitering for 6/7 hours if I was wanting to defend my country from air attack I would rather have pilots who have been in the air for 30 mins (Spitfire's who have been scrambled) than 6 or 7 hours (P-38's on patrol). The combat efficiency of a pilot who has been in the air for 6 or 7 hours will be less than that of a Spitfire pilot who has been scrambled as fatigue would of set in and so the pilot would not be as alert. Taking this into account I would rather have Squadrons of Spitfires on standby on the ground rather than Squadrons of P-38's on patrol for 7 hours at a time.

 

[syscom3]

Thats a stupid way of looking at it. Aircraft on the ground are sitting targets. Aircraft climbing for altitude for an intercept are at a low energy level.

ANY airplane at altitude is ALWAYS ready. And even if a pilot is a little tired from sitting around up there for few hours will be plenty alert and ready to fight once they get a shot of adrenaline going.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I never suggested that they were escorting USAAF 8th Air Force heavies. However, they were escorting RAF Halifaxes and Lancasters on daylight raids to the submarine pens at La Pallice and La Rochelle. Spitfire VIIs operated all the way up to the Saarland, right on the German border.

There was a period where the Spitfires were undoubtedly outranged by their USAAF counterparts, namely from late 1943 until the middle of 1944. They weren't much use in escorting the heavies over Germany, true, but something of equal importance was going on over France at the same time as the 8th AirForce fighters began to find sucess: the systematic destruction of the LuftWaffe in northern France. Spitfires played key escort and fighter bomber roles in the winter and spring of 1944, ensuring the success of Point Blank, Crossbow, the Transportation Plan and the build up to Overlord.

After the Allied landings in June, Spitfires were the first fighters to land in France, after running short of fuel escorting medium bomber formations past Paris. From June to the end of the war, the Spitfire was the primary air superiority fighter of the RAF over Europe. As the ground forces pushed further into France, Spitfires racked up a steady stream of kills, day in and day out. They covered and protected the Allied armies, flew fighter bomber sorties, escorted medium bomber formations, flew standing patrols and attacked LuftWaffe formations. While the P-51 was knocking the stuffing out of the LuftWaffe over Germany, the Spitfire was doing the same thing over France.

By June 1943 there were 4 FGs of P-47s, the 4th, 56th, 78th and 353rd. By the end of August 3 more P-47 equipped Fighter Groups had joined them, the 355th, 352nd and 356th. There were 7 P-47 groups active before any of the P-38 or P-51 groups began operations. The heyday of the P-51 was from early 1944 to late 1945. The Spitfires heyday was from late 1939 until the end of the war.

 

[pbfoot]

but the spits did escort the 8th airforce on numerous raids sweinfurt regensberg and as you stated not far enough but to the german border give or take and my numbers ref usaaf kills I picked up from US defence docs

 

[syscom3]

The Spits and P47's throughout 1943 couldnt penetrate German airspace period. Once the bombers crossed the border they were at the mercy of the Luftwaffe.

The same thing goes for France. Draw your radius of action from England and all the Luftwaffe had to do is stay outsde that arc.

Dont forget that once the 8th and 15th AF bombers began their regular penetrations of the Reich in early 1944, the Luftwaffe pretty much ceased to exist in France. The P38's and P51's that flew to Berlin also swept France on the way home.

My point is this:
1) The Spit was the best allied fighter up to the end of 1943.
2) The only role that the Spit had in the first 1/2 of 1944 was an interceptor.
3) By that time, the P38 could do the same job as well as fly long range missions.
4) By the time the Spit reestablished itself in France (in June 1944), there werent many chances for it to fight as they still had the same old range restrictions.
5) The RAF and AAF tactical squadrons were covered by a myriad of fighters and were never dependant on Spitfire escort. The numbers of dog fights between P38's, P47's Spits and Typhoons were quite few in number.
6) By the time the Spitfire was close enough to fly around Germany, the air war was already won.
7) The P38 was NOT the all time great. The Spit was a great plane for 1940-1943, but not after. The P51 was the greatest fighter of 1944 and 1945 simply because it was good in all catagories and had the exceptional range to go to where the enemy is.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Spitfire pilots claimed around 1,200 German aircraft in the final 10 months of the war, outscoring all other RAF fighters by a ratio of around 2:1, while making up about 35% of Fighter Commands front line strength.

I'd hardly call 1,200 kills inconsequential.

Besides the Spitfire did a lot more than act as an interceptor. By 1944 it was a jack of all trades operating in more than a half-dozen variants: medium range escort, high altitude recon, low altitude fighter, high altitude fighter, low altitude recon, fighter bomber and even a carrier capable fighter. About the only job it didn't do was long range escort.

 

[syscom3]

1200 kills from July 1944 to April 1945? Do those numbers agree with German figures? Are those from only the ETO or include MTO as well?

Any breakdown on whether they were bombers or fighters?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Not true. The P38's could have been up at altitude loitering around for 6 to 7 hours at a time and then pounced on the incoming aircrfat. the Spits didnt have that type of endurance.

dude thats combat air patrol, NOT interception.............

And extra time to scramble fighters becaus eof communication channels? Ummmm...... ever heard of placing a telephone into the P38 base operations center?

dude that's not how the RAF operate, anywhere in the british military if you wanna so much as sneeze you gotta ask permission from your CO, the RAF wouldn't have made it as simple as phoning through to an american base, to an RAF base it would be easy, to put it through to an american base would be the absolute last resort, all other options would be weighed up first, if you think communications between the nations were that good or that the americans were seen as our saviors by the british you're wrong, it wasn't as easy as just picking up a phone and you weren't seen as our saviors, you were seen as loud and obnoxious, don't get me wrong we were glad to see you but only because it's someone else to, quite literally take some of the flak and give us food and metal...............

And even if a pilot is a little tired from sitting around up there for few hours will be plenty alert and ready to fight once they get a shot of adrenaline going

even after a few hours driving a car your attention levels and energy levels drop significantly, to claim that a pilot who has been up in the air for hours will have the same energy levels as one who has just taken off is rubbish..........

what's more when raids were coming in they were often very large, we needed 5 or 6 squadrons at a time to intercept, are you planning on keeping these 5 or 6 squadrons of P-38s up the air all together?

 

[evangilder]

Sending aircraft up to loiter for extended periods when they might not even face enemy aircraft is costly in fuel and wear and tear.