Griffon powered P-51

[Julian_S]

I spotted one at a distance at Kissimmee a few weeks ago and didn't have the time to try and get a closer look. Does anyone know anything about it?

Cheers Julian.

 

[Geedee]

Think you'll find she's called 'Precious Metal'

Got the chance to get close up and personal with her at the GOML back in 2007. Awesome show and and an awesome bird !!

 

[WJPearce]

It would indeed be Precious Metal. Not only is she the only Griffon-powered Mustang currently in existence, but she is owned and flown by Thom Richards out of Warbird Adventures / Kissimmee Air Museaum.

Air Museum

 

[Airframes]

Love the exhaust covers !

 

[Readie]

That is some machine. I would love to see her fly.
Cheers
John

 

[Julian_S]

Thanks chaps, as always, answers to my questions!

I wonder what the Mustang would have been like in the war if there had been such a thing as a Packard Griffon? . I feel certain that it would be able to do things like outrun a 190 with ease

Julian.

 

[tomo pauk]

Merlin Mustang was well able to do that

 

[Julian_S]

Merlin Mustang was well able to do that

I'm currently reading Robert Goebel's "Mustang Ace" book and he's just had a very close shave with two 190's down at tree top height chasing him. (with a 109 also there but coming a very poor 4th) It looks like he just about managed to keep ahead and out of range but was unable to pull clear and had to use a handy hillside to lose them!

Julian.

 

[davparlr]

Some Fw-190As would be able to stay up with very early P-51Bs pulling 60" or so boost at sea level but would be sorely pressed to stay with one pulling 67" and nowhere near staying with a post May '44 Mustangs pulling 70+ boost including all P-51Ds. The Fw-190D-9, on the other hand, is a different story.

 

[Julian_S]

I've just been reading a bit about the FW-190 (on Wiki) and I never realised that the radial engine had a cooling fan gear driven from the engine inside the cowling! That sounds truly bizarre to me, the fact that air at 200, 300 or 400mph from airflow in flight wasn't enough - what happened there, did they forget to machine cooling fins on the heads and barrels

Julian.

 

[gjs238]

I've just been reading a bit about the FW-190 (on Wiki) and I never realised that the radial engine had a cooling fan gear driven from the engine inside the cowling! That sounds truly bizarre to me, the fact that air at 200, 300 or 400mph from airflow in flight wasn't enough - what happened there, did they forget to machine cooling fins on the heads and barrels

Julian.

Look how tight the cowl is compared to other radial-engined fighters.

 

[johnbr]

I would love to see a P-51H with a Griffion.

 

[vikingBerserker]

What a beaut!

 

[Shortround6]

I've just been reading a bit about the FW-190 (on Wiki) and I never realised that the radial engine had a cooling fan gear driven from the engine inside the cowling! That sounds truly bizarre to me, the fact that air at 200, 300 or 400mph from airflow in flight wasn't enough - what happened there, did they forget to machine cooling fins on the heads and barrels

Julian.

It isn't the airflow at 400mph in level flight, it is the airflow at 200mph or under while using full power for climb or even the airflow at 0 mph on the ground even at idle. Cars don't need fans for cruising on the highway but try city driving without one

 

[Readie]

A rare beauty and one of those few examples where putting a British motor in an American frame ( chassis) made it go faster...

Has anyone seen her fly yet?
Cheers
John

 

[Julian_S]

It isn't the airflow at 400mph in level flight, it is the airflow at 200mph or under while using full power for climb or even the airflow at 0 mph on the ground even at idle. Cars don't need fans for cruising on the highway but try city driving without one

But plenty of other radials managed without a fan. I understand the comment about how tight the cowl is but it doesn't look that tight to me, but I know very little about such things and so it must be the reason as they wouldn't add a fan for no reason. I understand that it was the rear row of cyclinders that got hot but P&W managed a four bank radial and got it all to cool OK I think - maybe FW just couldn't get the duct work right?

Julian.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

But plenty of other radials managed without a fan. I understand the comment about how tight the cowl is but it doesn't look that tight to me, but I know very little about such things and so it must be the reason as they wouldn't add a fan for no reason. I understand that it was the rear row of cyclinders that got hot but P&W managed a four bank radial and got it all to cool OK I think - maybe FW just couldn't get the duct work right?

Julian.

This is Kurt Tank we're talking about. I think we've got to come up with a better explanation than 'they weren't clever enough'.

 

[WJPearce]

For those of you wanting to see her fly, here you go (Not my videos).

Precious Metal air to air shoot:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWD3l9Vn7Q

Precious Metal goes to Reno for the air races (before anyone says something about the music, use the volume control on your computer and be glad they post stuff like this for us to enjoy):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grTTywOnso

Here is a photo (taken by Thom Richards I think) with the new prop:

 

[jimh]

During my time with Warbird Adventures I volunteered to make new wing tips for PM...

Unfortunately, when Thom applied the carbon fiber he made a "hot batch" of resin and melted them down...It's a neat airplane but needs ALOT of work to compete with Strega, or even the Bear when it is running good. PM has alot of potential but needs alot of aerodynamic clean up. The Griffon would have never worked in the P-51 in combat...it eats wayyyy too much gas. A P-51D carried around 480 gallons of gas...burning at econo cruise 60 gallons an hour. The Griffon burns upwards of 80-90 gallons an hour in cruise. Push the power up for combat and you can increase these numbers quite a bit. The range penalty versus a few horsepower and weight would have made it horribly impractical in combat. With that said, if he can get to Reno next year he has a great chance of winning...I heard a rumor Strega retired, Voodoo IS retired and Dago is well off the radar. The only real contenders are the Bear and Dreadnaught

Jim

 

[Julian_S]

This is Kurt Tank we're talking about. I think we've got to come up with a better explanation than 'they weren't clever enough'.

Well OK, maybe they were up against production deadlines and had to engineer a 'fix' that worked, was guaranteed to work, and left the design team free to deal with other more pressing issues? There is a monumental amount of work involved getting a plane from the drawing board and into the air, certainly far too much for one man (Mr Tank) no matter how big his brain might be!

Julian.