Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

[buffnut453]

Sometimes I almost feel sorry for the Buffalo. You're right in that it is not as terrible as often made out. But unfortunately it's a rather tubby, unattractive aircraft; it if looked cooler it'd probably be rated at least a little higher.

The Finns got some good use out of it at any rate.

Well, actually, despite its poor performance in theatres other than Finland, the poor old Buffalo still achieved an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 26:1 (ok...claim to loss, but you get my drift). Therefore, statistically speaking, we should have scrapped all the Hurricanes, Spitfires, P-47s, and P-51s and just pumped out as many Buffalos as possible.

There....does that mean I can now be admitted to the Worshipful Company of Groundhogs?

 

[SaparotRob]

You might just be the Grand Marmota Monax Maximus.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

There....does that mean I can now be admitted to the Worshipful Company of Groundhogs?

Weren't you born into it?

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*

But unfortunately it's a rather tubby, unattractive aircraft; it if looked cooler it'd probably be rated at least a little higher.

*SNIP*

Whoa whoa whoa here... just whoa...

Them's fightin' words sonny...

Eye of the beholder remember.

*EDIT*

Just remember, you're talking to a guy that thinks French pre-dreadnoughts are cool.

Why yes, I do see a therapist once a week, why do you ask?

 

[SaparotRob]

I asked about any P-39 v. Buffalo encounters during the Continuation War. The response I got was that the Finnish did score against the P-39. To quote an old Ken-L-Ration dog food commercial: My dog's better than your dog!

 

[SaparotRob]

French pre-dreadnoughts ARE cool. Check out Drachinel's video on French Pre-dreadnoughts; When Hotels Go To War.

 

[buffnut453]

You might just be the Grand Marmota Monax Maximus.

I think I'll add that to my business cards. Sounds awesome.

Next question...can I wear the fez?

 

[Milosh]

French pre-dreadnoughts ARE cool. Check out Drachinel's video on French Pre-dreadnoughts; When Hotels Go To War.

A good site for BBs photos is Vintage photographs of battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers.

 

[SaparotRob]

Great link!

 

[SaparotRob]

I think I'll add that to my business cards. Sounds awesome.

Next question...can I wear the fez?

View attachment 632195

I think I still have one in my car! I was toying with wearing it because I had a friend who wore a beret. I can be as pompous as the next guy.

 

[Peter Gunn]

A good site for BBs photos is Vintage photographs of battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers.

French pre-dreadnoughts ARE cool. Check out Drachinel's video on French Pre-dreadnoughts; When Hotels Go To War.

Waaaaaaaaaay ahead of both of you BUT, thanks for posting those anyway.

 

[Milosh]

Waaaaaaaaaay ahead of both of you BUT, thanks for posting those anyway.

But many others might not be.

 

[Peter Gunn]

But many others might not be.

Hence the latter half of my post.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think I'll add that to my business cards. Sounds awesome.

Next question...can I wear the fez?

View attachment 632195

Why not wear a Teddy Roosevelt slouch hat and round-rimmed glasses?
That way you can go around saying "bully! bully!" to everything.

 

[SaparotRob]

I tried it but the neighbors complained.

 

[33k in the air]

French pre-dreadnoughts ARE cool. Check out Drachinel's video on French Pre-dreadnoughts; When Hotels Go To War.

First thing I thought of when French pre-dreadnoughts were mentioned!

 

[P-39 Expert]

You haven't proven many or indeed any of them.

Saying they are wrong is not proving they are wrong.

WHEN did the British specify the "extra" stuff to get out of the contract?
Which date/s or contract talks?
Why didn't Bell negotiate a lower performance standard if the British added weight?
Instead Bell spent weeks modifying the 2nd production airframe to a point where it could make the lower margin of the speed band specified in the contract.
Bell KNEW the P-400 didn't have a hope of meeting the contract specs weeks before the test flights. And yet it is the fault of the British?????
Bell had sold the French a plane that wouldn't meet the specs and the British got stuck with the contract. They had 3 opportunities, yet the original performance specs stood.

You have said the stuff the British added was useless.
As proof you trot out that the IFF wasn't needed in NG in 1942. Without a time machine what has that got to do with what the British needed in 1940-41 when fighting in British air space or over the Channel?
Cockpit heater is useless????
Two are redundant, were the British ever offered the system using the hot air from the radiator duct?
Self sealing fuel tanks are useless?

You have one quote from a page in AHT saying the .30 cal guns had an effective range 200yds and turn that into the .30 cal guns were useless. I do like AHT but it is not infallible and I have shown there are several mistakes on that page. I would also note that the British did NOT rip the .30 cal guns out of the early P-40s and depend on the two cowl .50s.

A bit more proof that A, .30 cal guns were useless in general and B, that the British could have known this in 1940 and early 1941,
At the time of the 2nd specification talks with Bell (Jan 1941) the British had gotten done with the BoB where over 99% of the fighting was done with .30/.303 guns. At that time the British were still arming the vast majority of their fighters with .303 guns including planning to fit 12 into the Hurricane II and the Typhoon.
But somehow the British are "tricking" Bell by keeping the four wing guns that Bell agreed to put in for the French?

Repeating wrong information many times does not make it true.

You are the one claiming much of what we know about the P-39 is wrong and yet you offer little more than conjecture or unproven claims.

First, nobody can prove British intent. I can't prove that the British intended to make the P-400 too heavy to make the performance guarantee. You can't prove that they didn't. But they certainly knew that a 7850lb P-400 with a 1150hp engine couldn't go 400mph, especially when their contemporary 6600lb Spitfire V would only go 371mph with a more powerful engine. And Bell knew that the P-400 couldn't make the guarantee, certainly not at 7850lbs. Who's fooling who? A P-400 tested in the US did go 371mph albeit at a lower altitude.

The IFF was useless in 1942 NG because there was no accurate radar until fall. The British DID order it but once the P-400s were diverted to NG the IFF would have been removed. To save the weight.

The gas cockpit heater WAS useless. Specified on the Bell Model 14 (P-400 and P-39D-1/2 EXPORT models) it caused radio static when in use and had an indicator on the instrument panel for when it overheated. Very effective ducted air system used on all the other P-39 models (D/F/K/L/M/N/Q) didn't cause radio static and didn't overheat.

The British rushed their 20mm cannon into production because even eight 30calMGs were proven ineffective in the BoB. No AAF or USN fighters used 30s in WWII except the P-39. They were redundant on a plane with cannon and heavy MG centerline armament. And it's effective range was only 200yds. Sure there are mistakes in AHT, as with any reference. But you haven't proven that the EFFECTIVE range was any farther.

 

[pbehn]

First, nobody can prove British intent. I can't prove that the British intended to make the P-400 too heavy to make the performance guarantee. You can't prove that they didn't.

To prove any "intent" the British would have to impose conditions on Bell that they didn't impose on anyone else either British or American. That is easily settled, all needed self sealing tanks, armour and IFF. Before any P-39 came to UK the British were fitting all of that to Hurricanes, as well as 12 x 0.303mgs or 4 x 20mm. They were also fitting cannon to Spitfires in 1940, how many times can this be gone over? The Bf 109 and Fw 190 retained rifle calibre guns until the end of the war BTW.

 

[P-39 Expert]

To prove any "intent" the British would have to impose conditions on Bell that they didn't impose on anyone else either British or American. That is easily settled, all needed self sealing tanks, armour and IFF. Before any P-39 came to UK the British were fitting all of that to Hurricanes, as well as 12 x 0.303mgs or 4 x 20mm. They were also fitting cannon to Spitfires in 1940, how many times can this be gone over? The Bf 109 and Fw 190 retained rifle calibre guns until the end of the war BTW.

How many times are you going to twist this around? It's not that they needed armor, it's HOW MUCH ARMOR. Yes the British were still using 30calMGs after the BoB, but the AAF WAS NOT. Except for the P-39. The British were using a few 20mm cannon in the BoB, but VERY VERY FEW on an experimental basis. They were unreliable and didn't hold enough ammunition at that stage of their development. The British did need IFF but the AAF DID NOT in NG in '42.

You are the one that continues to troll. If you don't like it, stop trolling.

 

[pbehn]

How many times are you going to twist this around? It's not that they needed armor, it's HOW MUCH ARMOR. Yes the British were still using 30calMGs, but the

How much armour is a pretty puzzle, as much as the Russians used, I should wager.