Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

[GrauGeist]

No it couldn't land on a carrier, but then neither could the F4U-1. And range was equivalent to either the Navy fighters.

The range of the P-39 was half that of Navy fighters.
The F4U's range was 1,000 miles.
The F6F's range was 945 miles.
The F4F's range was 845 miles.
And even the SBD's range was 1,100 miles.
All these ranges are with internal fuel and combat loads - the ferry ranges were further.
And every single aircraft listed above operated from carriers during the war.

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, if you dumped the .50s for pulse cannon I think the P-39 would be unstoppable.

That is subject to debate...

 

[wuzak]

I'll bet dollars to donuts there wasn't a P-39 or P-400 flying around the SWP (Port Moresby 1942) with an IFF installed so your argument about removal of these units is a mute point.

I don't think the experts in this thread will remain mute.

Though I expect you meant moot!

 

[wuzak]

My apology, I just looked it up and the exact weight is 5849lbs gross per the contract signed in Feb 1940. This weight was the basis for the 400mph estimates, aka P-400. Final gross weight after the British finished with it in 1941 was 7850lbs. Ordered before the BoB, completed in 1941 after the BoB.

I'm sure with contract revisions Bell would have revised their performance estimates?

Maybe Bell was still full of shit?

The 7150lb weight is for a P-39D without wing guns and the nose armor (AHT).

Ah, the infamous nose armour. What would a thread be without it?

Yes the British specified an IFF radio and yes they did have radar. But they didn't use their P-400s. The P-39 in 1942 was used in the Pacific at Port Moresby which didn't have radar until late 1942. So IFF was useless until radar was installed. Any more exaggerations I can help you with?

I am confused.

Are you reconfiguring the P-39D to be a better weapon of war, or for just one point of time at one location during the war?

 

[wuzak]

Well, if you dumped the .50s for pulse cannon I think the P-39 would be unstoppable.

Don't be silly.

The pulse cannons didn't exist, and still don't.


The remote gearbox surely allows for the installation of a 20mm Vulcan in the nose firing through the hub, instead of the 37mm.

Once that is installed we can confidently ditch the nose armour, wing guns and probably the cowl guns. With the ammo the P-39 could carry, the firing time will be down to 1s or less.

 

[PAT303]

While this thread and others like it involving members who cannot learn or accept facts are a lost course they do bring out the best information in the vain attempt to teach the unteachable, in that sense they do contribute to the forum.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't think the experts in this thread will remain mute.

Though I expect you meant moot!

I did LOL!

 

[Shortround6]

Well, if you dumped the .50s for pulse cannon I think the P-39 would be unstoppable.

Everybody knows that disrupters are 3 times more effective than pulse cannon

 

[Shortround6]

" I just looked it up and the exact weight is 5849lbs gross per the contract signed in Feb 1940. This weight was the basis for the 400mph estimates, aka P-400. Final gross weight after the British finished with it in 1941 was 7850lbs"


Hmm, strangely enough, the P-39C went 5,070lbs empty, 7075lbs gross weight (combat) and 7300lbs max gross. They were ordered August 10th 1939. So, in Feb of 1940, 6 months later Bell is telling the British the plane will only weigh 5879lbs gross for combat?
809lbs useful load?
160lb pilot (including 20lb parachute)
290lbs just for the .50 cal guns and ammo
45lbs of oil (2 gallons for the gear box and only 4 gallons for the engine)

Leaves us about 70 gallons of gasoline and no gun sight.

There was absolutely no way Bell could have delivered a usable fighter aircraft even without armor or protected tanks with a gross weight of 5849lbs, regardless of what the British did.

On Sept 13th 1940 the USAAC ordered a bunch of P-39Ds and changed the contract for the 21st through 80th P-39C to P-39Ds with protection and wing guns.
From Joe Baugher's website on the P-39D page.
Weights: 5462 pounds empty, 7500 pounds gross, and 8200 pounds maximum takeoff.

Want to tell us in detail just what those perfidious sons of Avalon specified in the P-400s that the US was not specifying in the P-39D?

 

[Greg Boeser]

Everybody knows that disrupters are 3 times more effective than pulse cannon

True, but the Allison just doesn't produce the horsepower required, at least until the -85, and then only below 18000'

 

[GregP]

Regarding post #1311:

I respect your right to disagree, P-39 Expert, but we have looked at the actual airplanes in the last two days and there is no room for the Aux-stage supercharger without modifications that make the P-39 into not a P-39. Everything that is in the way would have be moved rearward, exacerbating the already-rearward CG issue, and the Aux supercharger just will not quite fit.

As I stated above, you are welcome to come visit and look yourself. But I doubt anyone will be granted access to disassemble that particular P-39. Still, there is another one in the airport and you can see inside easily. Sorry, guy, it doesn't fit.

With that, I am done with P-39s in this thread and also unless and until someone wants to discuss something realistic about the airplane. There is nothing wrong with a P-39 that cannot be discussed as long as stay with the actual facts. One of the most unloved fighters in U.S. service in WWII doesn't suddenly turn into an overnight success 75 years after the fact, despite a Groundhog thread.

Cheers.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Regarding post #1311:

I respect your right to disagree, P-39 Expert, but we have looked at the actual airplanes in the last two days and there is no room for the Aux-stage supercharger without modifications that make the P-39 into not a P-39. Everything that is in the way would have be moved rearward, exacerbating the already-rearward CG issue, and the Aux supercharger just will not quite fit.

As I stated above, you are welcome to come visit and look yourself. But I doubt anyone will be granted access to disassemble that particular P-39. Still, there is another one in the airport and you can see inside easily. Sorry, guy, it doesn't fit.

With that, I am done with P-39s in this thread and also unless and until someone wants to discuss something realistic about the airplane. There is nothing wrong with a P-39 that cannot be discussed as long as stay with the actual facts. One of the most unloved fighters in U.S. service in WWII doesn't suddenly turn into an overnight success 75 years after the fact, despite a Groundhog thread.

Cheers.

This reminds me of my time at Lockheed when I would find issues on an aircraft out in the field, try to explain it to an engineer and I was told "that can't be right, you're not seeing that." Sometimes photos weren't even convincing.

I call this the "Platypus syndrome." From what I understand when the Platypus was first discovered, this animal with a beaver's body, webbed feet a duck bill, laid eggs and had a poisonous spur was described to scientists in England who said "that cant be, you didn't see that." Of course a specimen had to be delivered as proof.

In lieu of the groundhog, I think we should make the Platypus the official mascot of this thread.

 

[GrauGeist]

In lieu of the groundhog, I think we should make the Platypus the official mascot of this thread.

Or the magic unicorn thread...

Either way works

 

[Marcel]

You guys are amazing, I go to sleep for a few hours and when I come back you have added another 6 pages to this thread. Just keep on it, this thread might reach the distinguished status of the "colour for a model I'm building" thread.

 

[BiffF15]

In honor of this and many other threads (all now locked).

 

[buffnut453]

To paraphrase:

"'Tis but a scratch"

"A scratch? I removed your armored gearbox"

"No you didn't"

"Look you stupid bastard, you've got no IFF left!"

"It's just a flesh wound!"


And on...and on....and on....and on, ad nauseam!

 

[buffnut453]

In lieu of the groundhog, I think we should make the Platypus the official mascot of this thread.

Sounds like the Greater Spotted Platyhog!

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The remote gearbox surely allows for the installation of a 20mm Vulcan in the nose firing through the hub, instead of the 37mm.

Maybe you could use the gun's revolving action to add a boost to the prop for some extra speed!

 

[Crimea_River]

The P-39 does have beautiful plumage though.

 

[SaparotRob]

I agree with Marcel.