Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[fubar57]

Suddenly a very large troll arrives...............

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Knowing where the opposition is ,is only important if the opposition can do something

As a military veteran, you have just proven to me you know jack shit about military strategy and war fighting.

Go back to playing Call of Duty or War Thunder...

 

[GrauGeist]

No : he did not keep them away from where they could be bombarded ,but for other reasons ,as
they were concentrated at railway junctions,to make it easier to supply them and from where they could easier advance .By railway . 2 PzD was the only PzD north of the Somme and was concentrated at the region of Amiens, FAR AWAY from the Pas de Calais . Distance Amiens - Dunkirk on roads of 80 years ago : more than 150 km .It would take more than 2 days before the whole division could arrive at Dunkirk .
an other reason was that,if one wanted ( as was Rommel ) to concentrate the mobile divisions at the coast, the only solution was to split them in small battalions and give up their mobility .
The Pz maffia ( Guderian,Geyr von Schweppenburg ,etc ) were hostile to the proposals of Rommel with as argument that it was impossible to prevent a successful landing . They were right,but their proposal: to let the Allied armoured divisions advance to the interior and to defeat them there, was also wrong .
Except for a miracle ,the Germans had no chance .

But Gen. Lee knew he could counter the PZ between Dunkirk and Amiens by starting bushfires that would confuse the enemy and slow them down. The smoke also blocked the view below by Kaiserliche und Königliche Luftfahrtruppen scouts so they couldn't assess the situation.
Also, according to Zappa ("The Black Page" pg. 69) all the Telegraph lines between Dunkirk and Amiens had been cut, disrupting communications.
So there was no way that Rommel, Guderian or Von Munchausen could counter Lee's fast moving mobile units.

So even if the Pz were to lay a trap inland, Aurelius (who had been very successful fighting Germans) and Lee would have decimated them wholesale.

 

[SaparotRob]

Are you having a joke? I have passed through the Pas de Calais many times, it isnt the French name for the English Channel (La Manche) it is the name for the departement on the French side. In WW2 it meant anywhere in and around Calais from Dieppe to Brugge and inland as far as places like Douai, anywhere that had military targets that would convince the Germans that the area would be the main point of attack on D-Day. Since the British and Canadian, Commonwealth forces had already landed at Dieppe, it was certainly in the Pas de Calais, thats why there were tanks at Arras.
View attachment 631224

Are you familiar with the expression "pearls before swine"? You would have better luck talking to the wall.
FWIW I'm convinced.

 

[SaparotRob]

But Gen. Lee knew he could counter the PZ between Dunkirk and Amiens by starting bushfires that would confuse the enemy and slow them down. The smoke also blocked the view below by Kaiserliche und Königliche Luftfahrtruppen scouts so they couldn't assess the situation.
Also, according to Zappa ("The Black Page" pg. 69) all the Telegraph lines between Dunkirk and Amiens had been cut, disrupting communications.
So there was no way that Rommel, Guderian or Von Munchausen could counter Lee's fast moving mobile units.

So even if the Pz were to lay a trap inland, Aurelius (who had been very successful fighting Germans) and Lee would have decimated them wholesale.

You are mostly correct but I think you are forgetting the eighth point of the Fourteen Points.

 

[ljadw]

Are you familiar with the expression "pearls before swine"? You would have better luck talking to the wall.
FWIW I'm convinced.

As a military veteran, you have just proven to me you know jack shit about military strategy and war fighting.

Go back to playing Call of Duty or War Thunder...

If the U Boats could not do anything against the convoys, there was no need to search for them .

 

[GrauGeist]

If the U Boats could not do anything against the convoys, there was no need to search for them .

But they weren't searching for UB - they were using that as an excuse to find the Titanic, most because they wanted to dispel the myth that the Titanic's swimming pool was still full.

 

[SaparotRob]

"If the U-boats could not do anything against the convoys, there was no need to search for them."
So if the Luftwaffe couldn't do anything to London, there was no need to intercept them.
I think I'm starting to understand.

 

[ljadw]

Of course he believed it. Your point was about Germany being aware of the place and time of the D Day landings, they were but were told it was a diversion, by the time they figured out it wasnt a diversion the Allies had broken out of Normandy. You are just moving goalposts pettifogging and denying. The point is the usefulness of breaking codes and deception which is actually beyond doubt except in the minds of revisionsists with a new theory.

Germany was not aware of time and place of Overlord, but this was not important,because Germany had not the forces to defeat the landing even if they knew it .
It was the same for the U Boats: even if they had more information about the convoys, they could not sink more MV/supplies .
And about breaking codes and deception : you are talking as some one of 2021 who is convinced that quality defeats quantity : the truth is that EIGHTY YEARS ago,quantity was more important than quality .
You still are unable to understand that with better code breaking,Germany would still lose : what it needed was not more knowledge of allied plans, but more divisions .
Germany had not enough soldiers to protect the coasts of Western Europe .
It had also not enough operational submarines ( very primitive machines ) to have a chance to strangle Britain .

 

[pbehn]

Are you familiar with the expression "pearls before swine"? You would have better luck talking to the wall.
FWIW I'm convinced.

Historically it is important. Allied bombing efforts were split between Normandy and other areas where a landing was likely, mainly the Pas de Calais region. Only a tenth of bombs dropped were in and around Normandy, most were around the Pas de Calais and further. They even left somethings untouched around Normandy to show they werent that serious, things that the allies would need themselves like bridges.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'm really hoping that there is a U-boat crewman who is a member of our forum to comment. Not that he would know.

 

[ljadw]

"If the U-boats could not anything against the convoys, there was no need to search for them."
So if the Luftwaffe couldn't do anything to London, there was no need to intercept them.
I think I'm starting to understand.

There is a difference between both : the LW was still able in 1940 to attack London while Doenitz did not know where were the non rerouted convoys and while his U Boats had not sufficient fuel and ammunition .
But : why should the RAF go after the LW bombers in 1945,when these were unable to hurt London .

 

[pbehn]

Germany was not aware of time and place of Overlord, but this was not important,because Germany had not the forces to defeat the landing even if they knew it .
It was the same for the U Boats: even if they had more information about the convoys, they could not sink more MV/supplies .
And about breaking codes and deception : you are talking as some one of 2021 who is convinced that quality defeats quantity : the truth is that EIGHTY YEARS ago,quantity was more important than quality .
You still are unable to understand that with better code breaking,Germany would still lose : what it needed was not more knowledge of allied plans, but more divisions .
Germany had not enough soldiers to protect the coasts of Western Europe .
It had also not enough operational submarines ( very primitive machines ) to have a chance to strangle Britain .

If Germany knew the date and time of the landings they easily had the forces to stop the landings, once a bridgehead was established with airfields which took place within days then they didnt. You are still unable to understand that you dont understand very much, so stop patronising and talking down to me and others.

 

[GrauGeist]

Germany was not aware of time and place of Overlord, but this was not important,because Germany had not the forces to defeat the landing even if they knew it .
It was the same for the U Boats: even if they had more information about the convoys, they could not sink more MV/supplies .
And about breaking codes and deception : you are talking as some one of 2021 who is convinced that quality defeats quantity : the truth is that EIGHTY YEARS ago,quantity was more important than quality .
You still are unable to understand that with better code breaking,Germany would still lose : what it needed was not more knowledge of allied plans, but more divisions .
Germany had not enough soldiers to protect the coasts of Western Europe .
It had also not enough operational submarines ( very primitive machines ) to have a chance to strangle Britain .

Well, it's no winder that the UB were useless, they were patterned after Hunley's design after all.
Now if they had followed Kroehl's design, they would have clearly been more effective.

In regards to code-breaking, Germany would have been able to move their units away before the invasion, so they wouldn't have lost any men or tanks - FACT.

 

[ljadw]

Are you having a joke? I have passed through the Pas de Calais many times, it isnt the French name for the English Channel (La Manche) it is the name for the departement on the French side. In WW2 it meant anywhere in and around Calais from Dieppe to Brugge and inland as far as places like Douai, anywhere that had military targets that would convince the Germans that the area would be the main point of attack on D-Day. Since the British and Canadian, Commonwealth forces had already landed at Dieppe, it was certainly in the Pas de Calais, thats why there were tanks at Arras.
View attachment 631224

Brugge is in Flanders : the Pas de Calais is in France .And Amiens is not located in the Pas de Calais . Amiens is the capital of the department of the Somme and was in WW2 the HQ of the second panzer division . And the distance between Amiens and Dunkirk is more than 150 km ,to Brugge even more which means that Germany had only ONE PzD to protect the coast between Normandy and the Netherlands ,which proves my point that with better intelligence Germany would still have only one division .
The problem was not intelligence but shortage of divisions .

 

[GrauGeist]

There is a difference between both : the LW was still able in 1940 to attack London while Doenitz did not know where were the non rerouted convoys and while his U Boats had not sufficient fuel and ammunition .
But : why should the RAF go after the LW bombers in 1945,when these were unable to hurt London .

But you don't seem to understand, the RAF wasn't going after LW bombers because they didn't know where they were.
People could hear them, but the RAF had no means to find them...they sky is as big as the Atlantic, you know.

 

[GrauGeist]

Brugge is in Flanders : the Pas de Calais is in France .And Amiens is not located in the Pas de Calais . Amiens is the capital of the department of the Somme and was in WW2 the HQ of the second panzer division . And the distance between Amiens and Dunkirk is more than 150 km ,to Brugge even more which means that Germany had only ONE PzD to protect the coast between Normandy and the Netherlands ,which proves my point that with better intelligence Germany would still have only one division .
The problem was not intelligence but shortage of divisions .

But if they had more divisions, they'd have to hire more intelligence people - where would they come from, since the Germans were so short staffed?

 

[SaparotRob]

Wait a minute, wasn't Intelligence on both sides irrelevant?

 

[pbehn]

I'm really hoping that there is a U-boat crewman who is a member of our forum to comment. Not that he would know.

My wifes father was a submariner, my father was on convoy escort. His ship HMS Highlander hit ice off Newfoundland, as the Titanic did. If you can run into an iceberg because you didnt see it how easy is it to miss a ship or convoy in the dark that is only a mile away?

 

[SaparotRob]

Don't bother us with facts.