Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2

[rebel8303]

I don't think that one can compare production of US to that of Germany or England. The two last were hammered every day by bomb raids but America was untouched until the end of the war. This a great difference.

Evangilder you sound like been playing Axis and Allies lately!!!

 

[plan_D]

Evan, Britain certainly underestimated the Japanese too. In Burma (You can tell I'm reading a book about it, can't you?) the British, Indians and Ghurkas were constantly told to attack even when severely under-strength. Alexander seemed to think that the Japanese would cave in (or something) under pressure, it wasn't until 1942 that he realised Burma was lost and ordered the retreat (with Slim and Stilwell in agreement).
It was the same in Singapore and in the Indian Ocean. The British were thinking the IJN was nothing compared to the Royal Navy, how wrong they were.

Rebel, the British Empire wasn't just England. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, [Parts of] Africa, India, Burma, Hong Kong all were part of the British empire. And the biggest contributers (Canada and the ANZACs were not touched, except Darwin was bombed a few times).

 

[rebel8303]

You are right in that. I just did not figured that out...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is pretty much what I was saying. I dont think if the Japanese had gotten the carriers it would have changed the outcome of the war. There was also never a real threat of invasion to the United States by Germany or Japan. There was no way that the Germans or the Japanese could logistically sustain fighting in all the way across both oceans. I do believe as most of you have posted that the British and the US underestimated the Japanese at first. After a few defeats they began to change the way they thought about things. I also believe that the Germans were underestimated by the French and the British in 1939. Then the French tucked there tails and ran when the Blitz Krieg came and the British almost lost there whole army in Dunkirk. I believe this may have hurt there egos, as they were thinking of a quick defeat of the Germans. Not to say that the British are egotistical I just think that they thought it would be a quick swipe to Berlin and the war would be over in 1940. After the defeat on the mainland they quickly changed there views of Germany capability and better prepared themselves. I think this at the same time kept the United States from underestimating the Germans because they had seen what they were capable of and it helped them better prepare for the invasion of Normandy as well as help the British prepare. At the same time as I said in my other posts I believe that Germany underestimated the US, England, and Russia. Well actually it is a fact.

 

[evangilder]

Rebel, I have never played axis and allies. SOunds like mayeb I should?

Adler, good points there. The British and the French provided plenty of intel about Germany to America before America's entry, so the underestimation by the US or Germany was reduced. I think both the Japanese and the Germans underestimated how much the US could produce. Having no attacks coming certainly gave the Americans free run to produce away.

I don't think any Army of the time could have taken all of America, the geographical separation and the sheer size would have been too monumental of a task.

 

[Anonymous]

Rebel, I have never played axis and allies. SOunds like mayeb I should?

Adler, good points there. The British and the French provided plenty of intel about Germany to America before America's entry, so the underestimation by the US or Germany was reduced. I think both the Japanese and the Germans underestimated how much the US could produce. Having no attacks coming certainly gave the Americans free run to produce away.

I don't think any Army of the time could have taken all of America, the geographical separation and the sheer size would have been too monumental of a task.

Post war studies show that Allied bombing had surprisingly little effect on German production. Typically, even after being hit pretty hard, German factories were back at nearly full production within a week, 2 at the most. The exception was bombing of oil refineries, but German synthetic plants were very hard to hit.

What really seems to have crippled Germany was not the heavy bomber raids, but when the USAAF turned the fighters loose on targets of opportunity, particularly transportation and communications facilities. German transport ground to a halt, and this crippled production. Often all the parts needed to put a tank on the ground or a plane in the air existed, but they could not be brought together to get the thing operational. With 20/20 hindsight, these kind of raids should have been carried out earlier, and perhaps what was needed was many thousands of light attack planes rather than a few thousand heavy bombers.

Something like the F7F Tigercat, with one 300 gallon drop tank, 2 x 1000 lbs bombs and 8 x 5" HVARS, along with its 4 x .50's and 4 x 20mm's would have been totally devestating to Germanies transport industry, and a good match against German fighters when clean. The P-38 might also have conducted such attacks, but I think the liquid cooled engines make it too vulnerable to small arms.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[plan_D]

The British and French inaction in 1939 sealed their fate. They probably could have ended it in 1939 but were too scared of the West Wall. Which, although portrayed as impregnable, was an easy obstacle to overcome. Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin after the war admitted the bunkers could be destroyed by long range artillery with no threat to the attacking artillery from German guns because the positions were so ill-prepared.

Germany certainly under-estimated the Russians. I don't think they under-estimated the British, they just didn't want to accept war with a country they so greatly respected until the BoB. By then, there wasn't enough time to prepare.

 

[Anonymous]

The British and French inaction in 1939 sealed their fate. They probably could have ended it in 1939 but were too scared of the West Wall. Which, although portrayed as impregnable, was an easy obstacle to overcome. Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin after the war admitted the bunkers could be destroyed by long range artillery with no threat to the attacking artillery from German guns because the positions were so ill-prepared.

Germany certainly under-estimated the Russians. I don't think they under-estimated the British, they just didn't want to accept war with a country they so greatly respected until the BoB. By then, there wasn't enough time to prepare.

I agree. In fact, Hitler had already ordered that if the French and British drove into Alsaice-Lorraine (sp?) while Germany was occupied in Poland the Germans were to pretty much capitulate and seek peace terms. It was a huge gamble, Germany had only token defenses in the west at this time.

Also, I don't think it is fair to say the French "laid down" when the Germans attacked. They were outflanked because they bet the farm on the Maginot line stupidity, and Hitler just went around it through the low-land countries. The French had somehow stupidly not considered this possiblity and were totally unprepared for it.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Rebel, I have never played axis and allies. SOunds like mayeb I should?

Adler, good points there. The British and the French provided plenty of intel about Germany to America before America's entry, so the underestimation by the US or Germany was reduced. I think both the Japanese and the Germans underestimated how much the US could produce. Having no attacks coming certainly gave the Americans free run to produce away.

I don't think any Army of the time could have taken all of America, the geographical separation and the sheer size would have been too monumental of a task.

You should deffinatly play Axis and Allies it is a great game and lots of fun if you have patience and lots of time. As for an invasion of the US, just like you said just the fact that it was separated by thousands of miles of great salt water that we call the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans pretty much negated any threat there could have been.

What really seems to have crippled Germany was not the heavy bomber raids, but when the USAAF turned the fighters loose on targets of opportunity, particularly transportation and communications facilities.

I agree with you on this. A lot of German Tansportation was based on the use of trains. (this is still true today, you can get anywhere by using the Bundesbahn [sounds like a commercial, doesn't it?]). The allied fighters with there orders to attack targets of oppurtunity would hit these trains. The trains were limited to being used at night under blackout conditions and this still did not help and lenghtened the time needed to get supplies and troops to locations.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree. In fact, Hitler had already ordered that if the French and British drove into Alsaice-Lorraine (sp?) while Germany was occupied in Poland the Germans were to pretty much capitulate and seek peace terms. It was a huge gamble, Germany had only token defenses in the west at this time.

Also, I don't think it is fair to say the French "laid down" when the Germans attacked. They were outflanked because they bet the farm on the Maginot line stupidity, and Hitler just went around it through the low-land countries. The French had somehow stupidly not considered this possiblity and were totally unprepared for it.

=S=

Lunatic

Just a note on the French and there Maginot Line and how they believed in it so much. I was watching the World At War series which I think is one of the best documentaries on the war as a whole. Well anyway they were showing an interview with a French General at the Maginot Line and in the back ground there were German soldiers playing football (soccer to the Americans). The reporter asked the French General why they were not shooting at the Germans if they were at war with them and he responded with "They are not shooting at us, if they shoot at us we will shoot at them." Well as we all know the Germans went around and not directly at the line.

 

[plan_D]

You do know the Germans did attack the line head on some way into the campaign? The thrust through the Ardennes was only the beginning, German 1st Armee did attack the Maginot Line on the 14th June. They found it to be a pityful defensive structure, with limited local protection. Even attacking it head-on proved easy because the bunkers were not equipped for all-round defence and one man could easily get to the blindside and destroy them with a flamethrower or grenades.
It also lacked depth, and German artillery ripped it up before 197th Infantry Division made the first thrust - which broke through.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but the main attack came through the low countries (I believe that is how they are called: Belgium, Netherlands, even though I am probably wrong with what they are called together).

 

[plan_D]

The diversion attack went through Holland. The main attack went through Luxembourg and the Ardennes forest (Belgium). The attack into Holland was to be made as loud and fantastic as possible to confuse the Allied High Command into thinking it was the main attack.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well it certainly was loud.

 

[plan_D]

It was. It worked perfectly too. The German thrust through - 'impassable tank terrain' - the Ardennes forest caught the BEF on the move into Belgium to cover the Dutch-Belgian border. By the time they reached Antwerp, they were already flanked.

9th Panzer Division attacked Holland.
6th Army - Pz. Corps Hoppner (3rd and 4th Panzer Division) moved into Belgium. These are only Panzer divisions I'm mentioning. Those three were the diversion.

The main attack - 4th Army - Pz. Corps Hoth (5th and 7th [Rommels Phantom] Panzer Divisions flanked south of Brussels.
12th Army - Pz. Corps Reinhardt (6th and 8th Panzer Divisions) - Pz. Corps Guderian [the creator of Blitzkrieg and Panzer formations] (1st, 2nd and 10th Panzer Divisions) plus Wietersheims Motorised Corps with 5 (Motorised) Infantry Divisions. 12th Armee would thrust through the Ardennes and force a crossing at Sedan. 16th Armee would cover their left flank, the northern flank of the Maginot line.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Rommel was a genius in battle field tactics, though the thing that gets me the most about him is the way his troops and people loved him. Every year I go to his memorial service and there are troops from many nations, Germany, France, England, the US as well as former Afrika Korps members in there uniforms at the service. It really is somber and a memorable experience. The man was truely a soldiers General and a great man.

 

[plan_D]

He truly was a gentleman, and the Last Knight is a perfect title for the man. However, his tactical ability is constantly blown out of proportion because he is famous.
His defence of France 1944 was flawed to the extreme, he should have listened to Guderian. His greatest feats were in North Africa but he was very lucky in many circumstances. Extremely lucky that the British were too cautious.

I would advise reading Panzer Battles by Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin if you are really interested. He was Ic to Rommel in the desert. As well as serving as the Ia with 197th Infantry Division in France, he also served in Russia with Gen. Balck (Probably the greatest Panzer General of the war) and served with Army Group G in France/Germany 1944.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the major thing in Normandy was not giving Rommel control over the SS Panzer division in Normandy.

 

[evangilder]

I agree about the bombing of factories versus transportation and communications hubs. During the battle of the bulge preparations, the Germans still had very good rail transport and were able to move alot of equipment towards the area that way. Keep in mind that alot of the bombardment and attack plans were pretty experimental in their time. Before WWII, no one would have thought of doing daylight bombing. When it was initally proposed, the Brits thought the Americans nuts. More than half of the Americans thought it was foolhardy as well. It was all a "Big experiment" (I think it was Robert Morgan who said that). Fortunately, we won, but at tremendous cost.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The main reason the trains were able to supply the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge was because of the poor weather that kept the allied aircraft from flying. As for my other post before this one, one reason I think of the poor planning for the defence of Normandy was the fact that Rommel had poor intelligents and the fact that the allies fed false intelligents to the Germans about where the invasion would take place. Considering all this I think he did the best he could with what he had.