highest kill ratio (3 Viewers)

[CHen10]

I personally talked about this with Kyösti...he said he scored 5 but run out of ammo on the sixth Il-2. He was extremely happy someone had actually seen it happen and remembered it.

Does this somehow refresh your hostile and uneducated attitude towards this case...or are you just trying to pull my leg ? I don't fully understand your hostility towards men in uniform but your attitude needs correctional acts pretty soon.

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

 

[CHen10]

Thanks,
have to say this looks more like a combat report or an ORB entry for the day done at SQ level
Does the russian records have something similar to this? (HQ report , aggregation of all reports send ):
View attachment 897202

Do you mean like a summary of the results of the divisions in that specific VA (Air Army)?

 

[andrewgeorge]

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

I just want to point out too that the fact he remembers the action unfolding a certain way is itself important to know and understand, even if he was mistaken then or mistaken decades later.

Pilots' experiences and present sense impressions are part of the historical record too, and they're worth knowing about in their own right.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

According to Keskinen's and Stenman's Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia (SIH) series Karhila was credited with 3 damaged Il-2s that day, none of which were shot down.

The tally for the claims accepted by FAF HQ for 2 July 1944 is:

-10 claims credited to pilots with a witness (T), of which 8 are verified from the Russian archives as shot down
-7 claims credited to the regiment without witness (R), of which 4 "
-11 damaged cases (V)

All of them by Finnish Bf 109 Gs (FAF code MT, abbreviated from Messerschmitt).

 

[Dimlee]

My post #241 explains it all.

And the folks that lived under Soviet rule did not have access to Soviet records so in that regard, yes they literally don't know what they're talking about. Of course that isn't their fault, they simply couldn't see the records.

The folks who lived under Soviet rule created many Soviet records. They had access to many other records and worked with them. Many of those folks had the opportunity to talk to people who were part of the Soviet system since the 1920s, in times of war and peace...and who also created records. So yes, the folks do know what they are talking about.

As for post #241, it contains interesting assumptions. Let me comment selectively.
1. "Soviet records are incredibly accurate"
May be so. But accurate doesn't mean true. Falsified census results, so-called 5-year plans, and mock trial records were very detailed and accurate.
2. "Losses are always documented. If an aircraft becomes a loss, there is always a record of that loss".
Over 50% of June-July 1941 VVS losses were put into the "неучтённые потери" category. Rough translation: unaccounted losses. No individual loss records, just a summary for over 5,000 aircraft. Accounting for other equipment, fuel, and other material was also in a bad shape. Yes, it was unusual, and that category later shrank before disappearing together with a fog of war. Ironically, new categories appeared later, such as "естественная убыль" for fuel, opening new opportunities for corruption in peacetime.
3. "Soviets can't lie about records because everything is accounted for".
Everything was supposed to be accounted for. It just didn't work in real life. A totalitarian system has its limitations. It also creates incentives for lying.

 

[CHen10]

The folks who lived under Soviet rule created many Soviet records. They had access to many other records and worked with them. Many of those folks had the opportunity to talk to people who were part of the Soviet system since the 1920s, in times of war and peace...and who also created records. So yes, the folks do know what they are talking about.

I was referring to the millions of civilians not knowing what they are talking about and obviously the people filling out the records knew what they were talking about.


***

As for post #241, it contains interesting assumptions. Let me comment selectively.
1. "Soviet records are incredibly accurate"
May be so. But accurate doesn't mean true. Falsified census results, so-called 5-year plans, and mock trial records were very detailed and accurate.
2. "Losses are always documented. If an aircraft becomes a loss, there is always a record of that loss".
Over 50% of June-July 1941 VVS losses were put into the "неучтённые потери" category. Rough translation: unaccounted losses. No individual loss records, just a summary for over 5,000 aircraft. Accounting for other equipment, fuel, and other material was also in a bad shape. Yes, it was unusual, and that category later shrank before disappearing together with a fog of war. Ironically, new categories appeared later, such as "естественная убыль" for fuel, opening new opportunities for corruption in peacetime.
3. "Soviets can't lie about records because everything is accounted for".
Everything was supposed to be accounted for. It just didn't work in real life. A totalitarian system has its limitations. It also creates incentives for lying.

1. The records are true. This is about aviation regiment reports, not fake mock trials used to execute unwanted people or 5 year plans

2.

This is just something that could not be accounted for in the chaos of the retreat of the summer of 1941. Higher commanders had no communication with the units, so they had no information about the causes of losses or their number. But the total loss had to be labeled somehow.....

The chaotic retreat in the summer of 1941 was the only exception where the records just labelled the losses as unaccounted for. The situation at that time was completely unique and so incredibly chaotic that accounting for losses was impossible. This is the only time where this happened and it was out of the Soviet's control.


3.

But still, if one didn't report the losses, he could not ask for replacements. If your unit is understreght because of that, at some point one was not able to carry out the missions one was ordered to and you'll be exposed at the latest, probably earlier because the lack of planes would have been easily noticed. A lot of combat losses could not be attributed to technical faults, because then the TO of the unit would have been suddenly brought in for questioning and would hardly have accepted the charge of sabotage to save the unit's commander's ass. The sentence for sabotage was easily death.

Everything was accounted for and the reason why can be seen above. If you lied you would only get yourself in trouble and honestly you would probably be sentenced to death.