highest kill ratio (6 Viewers)

[CHen10]

I personally talked about this with Kyösti...he said he scored 5 but run out of ammo on the sixth Il-2. He was extremely happy someone had actually seen it happen and remembered it.

Does this somehow refresh your hostile and uneducated attitude towards this case...or are you just trying to pull my leg ? I don't fully understand your hostility towards men in uniform but your attitude needs correctional acts pretty soon.

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

 

[CHen10]

Thanks,
have to say this looks more like a combat report or an ORB entry for the day done at SQ level
Does the russian records have something similar to this? (HQ report , aggregation of all reports send ):
View attachment 897202

Do you mean like a summary of the results of the divisions in that specific VA (Air Army)?

 

[andrewgeorge]

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

I just want to point out too that the fact he remembers the action unfolding a certain way is itself important to know and understand, even if he was mistaken then or mistaken decades later.

Pilots' experiences and present sense impressions are part of the historical record too, and they're worth knowing about in their own right.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

According to Keskinen's and Stenman's Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia (SIH) series Karhila was credited with 3 damaged Il-2s that day, none of which were shot down.

The tally for the claims accepted by FAF HQ for 2 July 1944 is:

-10 claims credited to pilots with a witness (T), of which 8 are verified from the Russian archives as shot down
-7 claims credited to the regiment without witness (R), of which 4 "
-11 damaged cases (V)

All of them by Finnish Bf 109 Gs (FAF code MT, abbreviated from Messerschmitt).

 

[Dimlee]

My post #241 explains it all.

And the folks that lived under Soviet rule did not have access to Soviet records so in that regard, yes they literally don't know what they're talking about. Of course that isn't their fault, they simply couldn't see the records.

The folks who lived under Soviet rule created many Soviet records. They had access to many other records and worked with them. Many of those folks had the opportunity to talk to people who were part of the Soviet system since the 1920s, in times of war and peace...and who also created records. So yes, the folks do know what they are talking about.

As for post #241, it contains interesting assumptions. Let me comment selectively.
1. "Soviet records are incredibly accurate"
May be so. But accurate doesn't mean true. Falsified census results, so-called 5-year plans, and mock trial records were very detailed and accurate.
2. "Losses are always documented. If an aircraft becomes a loss, there is always a record of that loss".
Over 50% of June-July 1941 VVS losses were put into the "неучтённые потери" category. Rough translation: unaccounted losses. No individual loss records, just a summary for over 5,000 aircraft. Accounting for other equipment, fuel, and other material was also in a bad shape. Yes, it was unusual, and that category later shrank before disappearing together with a fog of war. Ironically, new categories appeared later, such as "естественная убыль" for fuel, opening new opportunities for corruption in peacetime.
3. "Soviets can't lie about records because everything is accounted for".
Everything was supposed to be accounted for. It just didn't work in real life. A totalitarian system has its limitations. It also creates incentives for lying.

 

[CHen10]

The folks who lived under Soviet rule created many Soviet records. They had access to many other records and worked with them. Many of those folks had the opportunity to talk to people who were part of the Soviet system since the 1920s, in times of war and peace...and who also created records. So yes, the folks do know what they are talking about.

I was referring to the millions of civilians not knowing what they are talking about and obviously the people filling out the records knew what they were talking about.


***

As for post #241, it contains interesting assumptions. Let me comment selectively.
1. "Soviet records are incredibly accurate"
May be so. But accurate doesn't mean true. Falsified census results, so-called 5-year plans, and mock trial records were very detailed and accurate.
2. "Losses are always documented. If an aircraft becomes a loss, there is always a record of that loss".
Over 50% of June-July 1941 VVS losses were put into the "неучтённые потери" category. Rough translation: unaccounted losses. No individual loss records, just a summary for over 5,000 aircraft. Accounting for other equipment, fuel, and other material was also in a bad shape. Yes, it was unusual, and that category later shrank before disappearing together with a fog of war. Ironically, new categories appeared later, such as "естественная убыль" for fuel, opening new opportunities for corruption in peacetime.
3. "Soviets can't lie about records because everything is accounted for".
Everything was supposed to be accounted for. It just didn't work in real life. A totalitarian system has its limitations. It also creates incentives for lying.

1. The records are true. This is about aviation regiment reports, not fake mock trials used to execute unwanted people or 5 year plans

2.

This is just something that could not be accounted for in the chaos of the retreat of the summer of 1941. Higher commanders had no communication with the units, so they had no information about the causes of losses or their number. But the total loss had to be labeled somehow.....

The chaotic retreat in the summer of 1941 was the only exception where the records just labelled the losses as unaccounted for. The situation at that time was completely unique and so incredibly chaotic that accounting for losses was impossible. This is the only time where this happened and it was out of the Soviet's control.


3.

But still, if one didn't report the losses, he could not ask for replacements. If your unit is understreght because of that, at some point one was not able to carry out the missions one was ordered to and you'll be exposed at the latest, probably earlier because the lack of planes would have been easily noticed. A lot of combat losses could not be attributed to technical faults, because then the TO of the unit would have been suddenly brought in for questioning and would hardly have accepted the charge of sabotage to save the unit's commander's ass. The sentence for sabotage was easily death.

Everything was accounted for and the reason why can be seen above. If you lied you would only get yourself in trouble and honestly you would probably be sentenced to death.

 

[topspeed]

Sounds like Karhila was officially credited with damaging three IL-2s but many years later he misremembered and thought it was five IL-2s. Of course the way to see how many he actually damaged and maybe if any of them crashed is to look at the Soviet records for the relevant air regiments on that day. Maybe some of those IL-2s actually crashed and he did better than he thought! However until that research is done his official claim of three damaged is the one that stands since his memories decades later are unreliable.

I recall he was of the opinion that if he claimed all 5 he actually shot down he would not have been accepted with his claims as he had no witness for them. Now when this sergeant on a hill saw he shooting down all of them very vividly 47 years later is a tall testament of the reserve officer Karhilas skill as a pilot. Only mistake of sergeants testimony is that he saw him shoot down all of them ( I recall sergeants had binoculars as they were on a hill for a look out ). Whether Karhila wanted to down play his feat or sergeant missaw it all I cannot say. Karhila was known to be the only sober man in the squadron and eager to get his Mannerheim cross ( which meant a lot of money too ). When I talked with this sergeant who was in hospital bed before his surgery he was able to exactly show with his hands how captain Karhila managed to shoot down his adversaries.... with a half barrel roll.......one by one ( Karhila was cheered to hear this as he responded immediately as that was how it happened ). The Il-2s had emptied all they guns and rear mounted machine guns on the fleeing civilians on the rail road junction. I bet for captain it was bit cruel moment too as they were sitting ducks for him.

This story really got under my skin as I myself had been a leader of the R/C air combat hobby at the time.....and had flown 150 flights with a 1/12 scale Messerschmitt 109 G model ( which I still have on my shelf here ).

I would now after what I know grant him ( captain Kyösti Karhila ) the Mannerheim cross posthumously.....even if it was only in 1/12 scale.

Mannerheim Cross - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My curiosity to know what the infantry men saw in the skies was my habit at the time when there still were Continuation War( WW2 ) soldiers alive in Finland.
This sergeant was from eastern Finland ( Kajaani ) and was thus in the local ( City of Oulu ) university hospital for treatment. His first reaction to my question was that there were no finnish airplanes in the sky back then...but then as if a lightning had struck him he started to memorize the incident. I think I actually got more than I bargained for...it brought a tear in my eyes....as I asked him how many this pilot shot out of the six...and he responded all of them.

Kyösti flew his 109 G-6 with Rüstsätze VI....so he had 2 extra 20 mm cannons in his wings. For instance Illu Juutilainen wanted them removed from his plane...as it made it slower. I bet Kyösti if anyone had the fire power to wipe out all the six Ilyushins.


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WWIIplanes/comments/1j9u46d/messerschmitt_bf_109_g_fitted_with_the_r%C3%BCsts%C3%A4tze/

Was it really R2 kit or R6 as that claims ?

The main engine-mounted 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon (Motorkanone) in the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 carried 200 rounds of ammunition. [1, 2]

Armament and Ammunition Overview

• • Nose/Engine Cannon: 1 × 20 mm MG 151/20 with 200 rounds (or optional 30 mm MK 108 with 65 rounds in the /U4 variant).
  • Cowling Machine Guns: 2 × 13 mm MG 131 synchronized machine guns with 300 rounds per gun.
  • Optional Underwing Pods (Rüstsatz 6): 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons with 135 to 145 rounds per pod. [1, 2, 3, 4]

So lieutenant had 1070 projectiles to send at the fleeing IL-2s. So about 178 per each plane.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6/R6 (MT-461): His primary mount during the heavy combat of July 1944 while serving with HLeLv 34 in Lappeenranta, with which he scored numerous victories.

----

MT-461 refers to a specific Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 fighter aircraft that served with the Finnish Air Force (Ilmavoimat) during World War II. [1, 2]

Aircraft History & Context

• • Model: Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6/R6 (manufactured by Erla).
  • Pilot: Flown prominently by Finnish fighter ace Luutnantti (Lieutenant) Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila (32.25 total confirmed victories).
  • Unit: 3rd Flight of Fighter Squadron 24 (3./HLeLv 24).
  • Operational Timeframe: Summer 1944, during the intense defensive battles of the Continuation War against the Soviet Union (stationed at Lappeenranta, Finland). [1, 2]

Markings and Camouflage Scheme
In Finnish service, MT-461 wore a unique blend of German factory camouflage and distinct tactical Finnish theater markings: [1]

• • Standard Camouflage (German RLM Scheme): Unlike some Finnish Bf 109s repainted in the domestic olive green/black scheme, MT-461 retained its original German Luftwaffe day-fighter camouflage consisting of RLM 74/75/76 (Dark Gray / Medium Gray upper surfaces over Light Blue undersides and fuselage sides with gray mottling). [1, 2]
  • Tactical Numbers: Wore a prominent yellow number "6" on both sides of the fuselage, just forward of the national insignia. [1]
  • Serial Designation: The Finnish registration code MT-461 was painted in black on the rear fuselage/tail section. [1]
  • National Insignia: Wore the blue swastika on a white circular field (the official Finnish Air Force national insignia from 1918 to late 1944). These were located on the fuselage sides and the upper/lower surfaces of the wings.
  • Axis Theater Bands: Featured standard Eastern Front yellow identification markings, including a yellow band around the rear fuselage and yellow under-wing tips.

Profile 35: "Four Six One" as flown by Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila

Aircraft artwork based on the personal interviews of aviation artist, writer and filmmaker, John Mollison

ww2fighters.blogspot.com

Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila was able to shoot a bomber with 3 bullets:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzDNNW3oKw&t=327s

 

[CHen10]

According to Keskinen's and Stenman's Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia (SIH) series Karhila was credited with 3 damaged Il-2s that day, none of which were shot down.

The tally for the claims accepted by FAF HQ for 2 July 1944 is:

-10 claims credited to pilots with a witness (T), of which 8 are verified from the Russian archives as shot down
-7 claims credited to the regiment without witness (R), of which 4 "
-11 damaged cases (V)

All of them by Finnish Bf 109 Gs (FAF code MT, abbreviated from Messerschmitt).

View attachment 897208

Well this settles it. Karhila only had 3 damaged claims and none of them crashed meaning he had 0 real victories that day.

By the way, where did you get that list? Is it part of a full list analysing all the victories on every day? I would like to see more of it.