vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I'll see if I can record the next time.
'Hitler's Stealth Fighter' on National Geographic
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wheelsup_cavu
1st Sergeant
I was browing the net the other day and came across these pictures of the plane.
The posts are a couple of years old.
Horten Ho 229 V3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Horten Ho 229 V3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Wheels
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I saw the show and enjoyed it very much. I know the radar range they tested it at, it was close to one of my former home airports, Fox Field. I just had a few comments and Tim; hopefully you'll check in and give some input.
I know the goal was to build a wooden model with similar characteristics to the original and check its RCS. You mentioned that you found carbon between the wood laminates. Was this accounted for when the tests were done?
I know commercial plywood was used but wondered how the original wood laminate with the original wood glues would have done, or even if they made a difference. I see you guys made use of the "good ole Elmer's."
The show mentioned a 20% RCS reduction when compared to other aircraft of the day. How does the model's RCS compare with say the F-117A or even the B-2?
The show talked about the bomber program and how Goering talked about German nuclear capability. I think that might have been a bit farfetched as history has told us that by March of 1945 Germany's atomic research program was all but wiped out as a result of a bombing raid on one of its major facilities. Additionally the supply of heavy water was also disrupted several times. Although I take a lot of the information from Wikipedia with a grain of salt, this passage does give some good references.
The joint American, British, and Canadian Manhattan Project developed the uranium and plutonium atomic bombs, which helped bring an end to hostilities with Japan during World War II. Its success is attributable to meeting all four of the following conditions:[98]
A strong initial drive, by a small group of scientists, to launch the project.
Unconditional government support from a certain point in time.
Essentially unlimited manpower and industrial resources.
A concentration of brilliant scientists devoted to the project.
Even with all four of these conditions in place the Manhattan Project succeeded only after the war in Europe had been brought to a conclusion. In Germany however only the first condition was met, and then only in a weaker sense than for the Manhattan Project. Added to this mutual distrust between the German government and the scientists existed.
For the Manhattan Project, the second condition was met on 9 October 1941 or shortly thereafter. Significant here is that by the end of 1941 it was already apparent that the German nuclear energy project would not make a decisive contribution to ending the German war effort in the near term, and control of the project was relinquished by the Heereswaffenamt (HWA, Army Ordnance Office) to the Reichsforschungsrat (RFR, Reich Research Council) in July 1942, essentially making it only a research project with objectives far short of making a weapon.
Concerning condition three, the needs in materiel and manpower for a large-scale project necessary for the separation of isotopes for a uranium-based bomb and heavy water production for reactors for a plutonium-based bomb may have been possible in the early years of the war, but in the latter years it would have been impossible to mount such an effort. Also, these large-scale facilities would have been recognized and included as targets for the Allied bombing missions, which grew in intensity as the war continued.
As to condition four, the high priority allocated to the Manhattan Project allowed for the recruitment and concentration of capable scientists on the project; in Germany, the priority and a focused project for such recruitment and concentration of personnel did not exist past mid-1942.
Thus, weakly meeting only the first of these four conditions, Germany fell far short of what was required to make an atomic bomb.[99] [100] [101] [102]
^ Landsman, 2002, 303 and 319-319.
^ Jeremy Bernstein Hitler's Uranium Club: The Secret Recording's at Farm Hall (Copernicus, 2001) 122-123.
^ M. Bundy Danger and survival: Choices about the bomb in the first fifty years (Random House, 1988 ), as cited in Landsman, 2002, 318n83.
^ Werner Heisenberg Research in Germany on the Technical Applications of Atomic Energy, Nature Volume 160, Number 4059, 211-215 (August 16, 1947). See also the annotated English translation: Document 115. Werner Heisenberg: Research in Germany on the Technical Application of Atomic Energy [August 16, 1947] in Hentschel, Klaus (editor) and Ann M. Hentschel (editorial assistant and translator) Physics and National Socialism: An Anthology of Primary Sources (Birkhäuser, 1996 ) 361-379. Especially see Hentschel and Hentschel, 1996, 378 and 378n76.
Again, just some questions and critique of a very enjoyable show.
Now when are we building a flying example?!?!?!?
I know the goal was to build a wooden model with similar characteristics to the original and check its RCS. You mentioned that you found carbon between the wood laminates. Was this accounted for when the tests were done?
I know commercial plywood was used but wondered how the original wood laminate with the original wood glues would have done, or even if they made a difference. I see you guys made use of the "good ole Elmer's."
The show mentioned a 20% RCS reduction when compared to other aircraft of the day. How does the model's RCS compare with say the F-117A or even the B-2?
The show talked about the bomber program and how Goering talked about German nuclear capability. I think that might have been a bit farfetched as history has told us that by March of 1945 Germany's atomic research program was all but wiped out as a result of a bombing raid on one of its major facilities. Additionally the supply of heavy water was also disrupted several times. Although I take a lot of the information from Wikipedia with a grain of salt, this passage does give some good references.
The joint American, British, and Canadian Manhattan Project developed the uranium and plutonium atomic bombs, which helped bring an end to hostilities with Japan during World War II. Its success is attributable to meeting all four of the following conditions:[98]
A strong initial drive, by a small group of scientists, to launch the project.
Unconditional government support from a certain point in time.
Essentially unlimited manpower and industrial resources.
A concentration of brilliant scientists devoted to the project.
Even with all four of these conditions in place the Manhattan Project succeeded only after the war in Europe had been brought to a conclusion. In Germany however only the first condition was met, and then only in a weaker sense than for the Manhattan Project. Added to this mutual distrust between the German government and the scientists existed.
For the Manhattan Project, the second condition was met on 9 October 1941 or shortly thereafter. Significant here is that by the end of 1941 it was already apparent that the German nuclear energy project would not make a decisive contribution to ending the German war effort in the near term, and control of the project was relinquished by the Heereswaffenamt (HWA, Army Ordnance Office) to the Reichsforschungsrat (RFR, Reich Research Council) in July 1942, essentially making it only a research project with objectives far short of making a weapon.
Concerning condition three, the needs in materiel and manpower for a large-scale project necessary for the separation of isotopes for a uranium-based bomb and heavy water production for reactors for a plutonium-based bomb may have been possible in the early years of the war, but in the latter years it would have been impossible to mount such an effort. Also, these large-scale facilities would have been recognized and included as targets for the Allied bombing missions, which grew in intensity as the war continued.
As to condition four, the high priority allocated to the Manhattan Project allowed for the recruitment and concentration of capable scientists on the project; in Germany, the priority and a focused project for such recruitment and concentration of personnel did not exist past mid-1942.
Thus, weakly meeting only the first of these four conditions, Germany fell far short of what was required to make an atomic bomb.[99] [100] [101] [102]
^ Landsman, 2002, 303 and 319-319.
^ Jeremy Bernstein Hitler's Uranium Club: The Secret Recording's at Farm Hall (Copernicus, 2001) 122-123.
^ M. Bundy Danger and survival: Choices about the bomb in the first fifty years (Random House, 1988 ), as cited in Landsman, 2002, 318n83.
^ Werner Heisenberg Research in Germany on the Technical Applications of Atomic Energy, Nature Volume 160, Number 4059, 211-215 (August 16, 1947). See also the annotated English translation: Document 115. Werner Heisenberg: Research in Germany on the Technical Application of Atomic Energy [August 16, 1947] in Hentschel, Klaus (editor) and Ann M. Hentschel (editorial assistant and translator) Physics and National Socialism: An Anthology of Primary Sources (Birkhäuser, 1996 ) 361-379. Especially see Hentschel and Hentschel, 1996, 378 and 378n76.
Again, just some questions and critique of a very enjoyable show.
Now when are we building a flying example?!?!?!?
RabidAlien
1st Lieutenant
I always thought Goering had more hot air than the average balloon-fest. He liked to promise things that were not remotely possible. I'm guessing he was hoping someone would lean on the physicists to get a working nuke out as soon as possible "because we have a plane ready to take it to Washington DC". Having a couple of those big suckers show up and drop some conventional armaments on New York would have been a staggering blow to US morale, though, and would have succeeded in the diversion of critical war materials from the European front back to defending the US mainland. That woudl've made a negotiated peace that much closer to reality for them, or at the worst, turned the war into a race to see who got the nukes out first.
This is how my braincell plays out the hypothetical situation, anyway.
This is how my braincell plays out the hypothetical situation, anyway.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree....
I think a major reason why the allies won WW2 was the inability of the Axis powers to fully disrupt the allies' ability to produce war materials and supply them to our forces. Had at least one strike by a Horten bomber been successful I think the face of the war might have changed drastically and maybe bought Germany one more year.
RabidAlien
1st Lieutenant
Yep....bought a year or more, and eased a bit of the strain on their western front (and possibly the Italian front as well). If Hitler had been able to get the Japanese to launch an offensive of some sort, to further distract the Allies, it might have given him time to complete his nukes. Added to that the considerable relief on the Eastern Front that the -229 would have brought (how badly would morale have eroded had Moscow and Stalin been obliterated with no prior warning?), and a very large portion of Europe could very well be speaking German today.
Messy1
Master Sergeant
I caught the program last night as well. It was very interesting. I am wondering how stable the original was, and does anyone know of any projected or estimated performance specs for the 229? It is a damn good thing this plane was not given the top priority, or the bomber version. Could really have been trouble for the Allies.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Next showing: Sunday 5th July 2:00pm EDT. Apparently the replica will join the San Diego Air Space Museum's permanent collection.
The one thing that occured to me today, the way they duplicated the fuel tank, since it was not a true tank (ie no sides and back" would that not have affected the radar signature at least on the sides and possibly the front?
The one thing that occured to me today, the way they duplicated the fuel tank, since it was not a true tank (ie no sides and back" would that not have affected the radar signature at least on the sides and possibly the front?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It was given top priority by Goering, but way to late in the game for it to do any good.
Data from "The Great Book of Fighters" based on the Horton's estimates:
Thanks viking, that would be great.
FLYBOYJ,
There has been some speculations regarding how far along the Germans were with nuclear research. They were the ones furthest ahead when it came to a nuclear reactor, but they didn't build a bomb. One thing is clear though, they weren't given much if any funding. According to all I've read Hitler thought the war would be over in 1941 and so he dismissed the nuclear bomb project before it ever even began.
Anyway there was a long discussion which I followed on the Axis History forum about it, but this was more about wether the Germans really had some sort of nuclear bomb by wars end. I don't believe they did, but the discussion was interesting anyway. There was also an interesting documentary posted there (I have no clue how accurate all of this is, but I'd take it with a grain of salt):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3KmIgAkx8E
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmIlFH105I
Might be that the Germans were experimenting with a conventional bomb packed with radioactive pollutants, explaining why some people got sick. Conventional bombs can be pretty big powerful as-well. I don't believe they tested an actual nuclear bomb.
There has been some speculations regarding how far along the Germans were with nuclear research. They were the ones furthest ahead when it came to a nuclear reactor, but they didn't build a bomb. One thing is clear though, they weren't given much if any funding. According to all I've read Hitler thought the war would be over in 1941 and so he dismissed the nuclear bomb project before it ever even began.
Anyway there was a long discussion which I followed on the Axis History forum about it, but this was more about wether the Germans really had some sort of nuclear bomb by wars end. I don't believe they did, but the discussion was interesting anyway. There was also an interesting documentary posted there (I have no clue how accurate all of this is, but I'd take it with a grain of salt):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3KmIgAkx8E
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmIlFH105I
Might be that the Germans were experimenting with a conventional bomb packed with radioactive pollutants, explaining why some people got sick. Conventional bombs can be pretty big powerful as-well. I don't believe they tested an actual nuclear bomb.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree - again it sounds like a little "sensationalism" on the part of the producers of the show IMO.
RabidAlien
1st Lieutenant
They rotated the plane when it was up on its pillar, and they painted the areas where they were certain to get a signature back. IE, the engines, fuel tanks, cockpit, etc. So short of having an actual working original to play with (wouldn't THAT have been nice!), I think they covered all their bases pretty well. Still, from the POV of a stationary Chain-Home station, the front view would have been the one to be concerned about.
wheelsup_cavu
1st Sergeant
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
... any chance to have sooner or later this work on dvd and order it on Amazon?
I doubt it will ever be aired in Italy...
I doubt it will ever be aired in Italy...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"This was the most advanced technology that the Germans had at the end of the war, and Northrop solved the question of how stealthy it was and its performance against Allied radar at the time," documentary filmmaker Mike Jorgenson told the Long Beach, Calif., Press-Telegram. "It's significantly better than anything flying operationally probably until the 1960s."
I disagree - even with its stellar performance, aircraft like the MiG-15, F-86 and Hawker Hunter would have had their way with it.
I disagree - even with its stellar performance, aircraft like the MiG-15, F-86 and Hawker Hunter would have had their way with it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I wonder if Jorgenson was making that comment in reference to the Ho229's "stealth" properties?
Although, with the way the radar technology was progressing, I can't see how it would have still had any advantage by the time the 60's rolled around.
Although, with the way the radar technology was progressing, I can't see how it would have still had any advantage by the time the 60's rolled around.
