How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[parsifal]

Although not obviously relevant to the question of how the Allies would respond, it may be worth noting that large numbers of Me 262s could cause other problems for a Normandy invasion. Firstly, there won't be any great surprise as reconnaissance aircraft can watch the invasion force in harbour and as it assembles. Secondly, jets could be used (as I suspect Hitler intended) for skip bombing against the supply ships. I am not sure how much trouble that will cause or what losses the jets will suffer in such attacks. Bomb laden jets at low altitude can probably be caught by lucky piston engined fighters and the speed over the target will not make jets immune to flak although some of the guns may have problems following crossing targets.

in relation to your first point, highy unlikely, or extremely foolhardy if attempted. The germaans, like everyone, would be cautiousto place extremely secret and highly valuable jet techniologies in harms way over enemy teritory. by way of comparison, it was 5 months before the Meteor was cleared for service over europe, and even then only over or near allied controlledterritory. that was many months after the 262 had entered squadron service

In relation to your second point, fighter bombers were notoriously bad at hitting moving ships, they could do it,and they could even hit ships,but as a rule of thumb prop driven FBs were roughly half as accurate as dedicated Divebombers. Rocket firing FBs like the befighter had some success, but in order to improve accuracy, generally had to reduce speed. reduce speed inan aircraft like the me 262, and you are immediately in trouble. And I doubt the 262 could slow down enough to be effective in this role. The best FB in the anti-shipping role in my opinion wasthe fairey firefly. it was accurate for a number of reasons, but chief among was its patented youngman flaps, which allowed their deployment even in 90degree dives. it greatly increased the bombing accuracy. no other flap, including the junkers design could match its capability. but it would not be possible to safely use it in an enemy controlled airspace.

even in my era,when our F-111s were using all but stand off weaponary lke the harpoon, to achieve better accuracy, the sircraft had to reduce sped to subsonic. That was with computer assisted aiming....the 262 would be relying on los the same as other a/c of its era. becauseof it high minimum speeds, it would not be very accurate at all.

An Me262 carrying boms would have to suffer some penalties in speed andother performance, and make it quite vulnerable to alled air defences, both AA and airborne. I thinkn a 262 used as an anti-shipping weapon would have yielded virtually no results. with regard to flak,wwii era guns would have no problem tracking a jet travelling at subsonic speed. We were tracking A-4s at 500 knots using 4.5" guns and even Bofors in the 70's , so why all of a sudden would a 262 be immune???

 

[stona]

Read "Arrow to the Future"

Amazon.com: Messerschmitt Me 262: Arrow to the Future (Schiffer Military/Aviation History) (9780887406652): Walter J. Boyne: Books

Thanks. It's always a bit risky stating numbers like that as hard facts. We can be sure that total production was 1400-1500 but many records are either missing, wrong or erroneous when it comes to aircraft in service.
I wouldn't argue with them, they are certainly in the generally accepted ball park.

I don't know his source for the 150 allied aircraft destroyed but that also sounds about right, though a bit higher than my own guesstimate. I didn't post the figure earlier because there are many who believe that the 500+ claims (depending who you read) are actually aircraft destroyed and it would just trigger another pointless debate

Cheers

Steve

 

[altsym]

@ Parsifal,

In regards to you "liking" my comment, understand that I'm a firm believer that Germany could have brought the airwar to a stalemate if different tactics were employed, and certain command decisions countermanded. Even with existing German aircraft.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't know his source for the 150 allied aircraft destroyed but that also sounds about right, though a bit higher than my own guesstimate. I didn't post the figure earlier because there are many who believe that the 500+ claims (depending who you read) are actually aircraft destroyed and it would just trigger another pointless debate Cheers

Steve

Agree, I've seen claims as high as 700. In the book I mentioned it talks about March or April of 1945 where 262s were shot down in greater numbers than their prey.

 

[parsifal]

@ Parsifal,

In regards to you "liking" my comment, understand that I'm a firm believer that Germany could have brought the airwar to a stalemate if different tactics were employed, and certain command decisions countermanded. Even with existing German aircraft.

doesnt matter to me. I give likes to comments that are clever or entertaining, or sometimes putting apoint across that I just didnt think of.

Despite what people think of me, I dont see this as a "them and us" contest at all. I object to revisionist history that is unfounded and in reality trying to re-write history. i also object to comments that are clearly derogatory for political or other reasons.

 

[Conslaw]

If I were an Allied commander facing multitudes of ME-262 on the eve of a planned invasion of the continent, I would switch American heavy bombing to night and I would lead with my fighter bombers in targets up to their maximum range. I could trade 1-1 or 2-1 and still come out ahead. I could still get sufficient air superiority over France to invade in the summer of 1944, and I'd rely on my advancing ground troops and my fighter-bombers to move my ground forces ahead to twin the war. I could fly medium bombers under a heavy curtain of fighter protection.

 

[Erich]

I believe there has not been written th fina word if ever will be on case studies of the % of Allied/Soviet A/C kills produced by 262 jet units, dn;t thin there ever could be due to records losses data buried burned up, stolen or simply does not exist.

say for example Nowony band - 50
JV 44 band - 50

I personally reduce JG 7 numbers but do not add any Soviet A/C kills down from 425 to 250.

you have private eschelon protective factory units, staffel sized units, Bomber-jabo, etc, which I will not even admit too nor 10./NJG 11 which records shall we say all over the books and cannot be 100 % confirmed with any facts. go back to Kommando Hogebeck out of Prague - Rusin which incorporated JG 7 and at least 3 other jet units so am wondering if JG 7 claimed overall everyone's western/eastern front jet claims ? ..... hard to say.

still if we take the upper 3 units that figures seem somewhat available for that record is impressive for the amount of jets encountered damaged/shot down if can be believed..........

 

[Jenisch]

Coming back to the beginning of the thread, apologists like Galland would argue that this was a waste of resources. Such raids could be carried out by conventional aircraft. Historically (1940) the most successful raids were carried out by the Bf 110s of Erprobungsgruppe 210.

Dropping bombs from Me 262s was another thing that they were not entirely ready for. Changes in trim to compensate for CoG changes had to be done rapidly and there are several accounts of aircraft crashing immediately after releasing bombs.
Bomb racks were not interchangeable but positioned and fitted to individual aircraft, almost invariably marked with that aircraft's werknummer. Another sign of the premature rush into service.

Cheers

Steve

Well, the bombers were just parked. A short 30mm burst in each of them and major damage would be ensured. The author of the topic says that the Me 262s would "appear in numbers" just as the P-51 became avaliable (late 1943). Historically, the Meteor appeared operationally in mid-1944. If the RAF could not have it earlier, then there's a window of oportunity for the 262s attack the airfields in England.

The Germans may not have like from the idea of having the new technology avaliable to the Allies, due to the risk of a 262 get in Allied hands by conducting attacks in England. The problem is that if the jet is to "save" Germany, just as an interceptor in friendly territory it would not do it. Specially because the red Juggernaut was coming and runing over everything on it's way.

ps: CobberKane, we need to have idea of what "numbers" of Me 262s you are proposing.

 

[CobberKane]

Fair enough. I think the USAAF regarded a 5% loss rate as acceptable for daylight raids. In 1943 the loss rate was often closer to double that, but then came the P-51 and revised tactics. How many 262s would have been required to get the loss rate back up to the unacceptable level? No idea, but for arguments sake, lets say the LW had the resources to put up 100 competently flown 262s to meet each large raid, as of about the time the P-51 was available in numbers for escort duty. That would be about the start of 1944, wouldn't it?

 

[Jenisch]

Yes. However, if they could field 100 Me 262s, there will have to be a context for this. We need to understand the German industry in the counterfactual scenario.

 

[bobbysocks]

what would happen if the allies made an equal or more mossies? have us and canada factories gear up to fabricate them en mass and flood the sky with them and replace the p38. you would have the range and something that is closer to the 262 in speed and flight characteristics. you would still need a sufficent number of 51s to deal with 109s and 190s. viable?

 

[Gixxerman]

In this scenario large numbers of 262's only 'works' in early 1943 if the allies are completely oblivious and shocked by their appearance, but it would have to be in large in numbers and with decent tactics for their use, reliability, well trained pilots etc etc.
Never credible in my opinion.
I still think the only outcome is continued bombing (by night) the Soviets get more of western Europe defeating Hitler's gang.

 

[nuuumannn]

Too many of us here are assuming that the first inkling that the Allies would have of these '100 or so' Me 262s would be as they came streaking out of the sky toward the bombers. That would most certainly not be the case at all. As I pointed out earlier, the Allies were fully aware of what the '262 was five months before it entered service and were aware the Germans had twin engine jet aircraft and the Me 163 a whole year before either entered service. Are you guys really that naive to believe that the Allies would do nothing and would be forced to accept enormous losses of bombers? They didn't just sit on their hands, they drew up plans - as was pointed out, the Gloster Meteor entered squadron service very shortly after the Me 262 did, they bombed production facilities, airfields etc. Yes there were dispersed sites, but the work was insufficient to make a lasting difference. Toward the end Me 262s were sitting on airfields because the Germans had no fuel, no spares, engines etc. Why are assuming that the real situation that did actually happen would not happen in a fantasy scenario?

The Me 262 was a flawed beauty; it promised great things for the future, but in its current state was not able to deliver because it was rushed into service prematurely. The Allies planned and acted on just such a scenario as what we are discussing, but in the end it did not happen; it could not happen - thankfully.

 

[Jenisch]

The Soviets modified some of their fighters with a rocket engine in the tail to fight the German jets (it was actually not completed before the war ended). I'm wondering if this could have been done with the American fighters (even if at the expensive of range, meaning more relays).

 

[Erich]

since none of Allied command had never seen films nor first hand ops by the jet it is strongly doubtful as you say months in advance. 8th AF escort pilots were astounded at the lack of being able to chase any of them down when they were first encountered almost on instructional flights in the summer/fall of 1944. As to bomber crews they knew they stood no chance against the jet as they could track them with their .60's unless they had high protective coverage......this is all covered in personal interviews over the last 30 years with former crews // squadron philosophies changed on the way they manged escort of heavies with allowance for jets to pass through and then follow if need be back to their own A/F's

 

[CobberKane]

Yes. However, if they could field 100 Me 262s, there will have to be a context for this. We need to understand the German industry in the counterfactual scenario.

Golly. Maybe I'll just have a contextual counterfactual beer and let it all ride...

 

[nuuumannn]

since none of Allied command had never seen films nor first hand ops by the jet it is strongly doubtful as you say months in advance.

The British based their information on reconnaissance photographs. Erich, read about Constance Babington-Smith, a photographic interpreter who made the first discovery of German jet development and about AI2(g) the British committe tasked with investigating intelligence about German jet and rocket projects. Head of British Scientific Intelligence Prof R.V. Jones had continuous contact with AI2(g) about the German jets and got his predictions pretty well done on what the Germans were up to. Further reading:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2000/aug/12/guardianobituaries

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0750936487/?tag=dcglabs-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0141042826/?tag=dcglabs-20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Report

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The Germans may not have like from the idea of having the new technology avaliable to the Allies, due to the risk of a 262 get in Allied hands by conducting attacks in England. The problem is that if the jet is to "save" Germany, just as an interceptor in friendly territory it would not do it. Specially because the red Juggernaut was coming and runing over everything on it's way.

Am I missing something here? With a combat radius of ~150 miles. Any base from which the 262 might stage an attack on England is within range of virtually every USAAF RAF fighter based in England (from mid-1943, if not a bit earlier) and therefore the air over it is already for all practical purposes, allied controlled. I can see the 262's value as a point defense interceptor and to some (but much less) extent even as a CAS weapon but as a power projection weapon its seems virtually useless. This isn't the summer of 1940 when the LW can attempt to seize control of British airspace with Me-109s and Me-110s, a chore for which those aircraft were woefully inadequate to accomplish, even when confronted by a 'mediocre' performing adversary like the Hurricane flown by rank novices.

For essentially the same reason I don't see the early presence of 100+ 262s as delaying Overlord at all.

 

[altsym]

Again it wasn't the BF 109's fault. Command decisions hampered the 109 pilots efforts. If decisions were left to the pilots, the RAF would have been decimated.

 

[CobberKane]

Again it wasn't the BF 109's fault. Command decisions hampered the 109 pilots efforts. If decisions were left to the pilots, the RAF would have been decimated.

I doubt it. "Decimate" is what the P-51 did to the Luftwaffe over Europe four years later, but they had an endurance over enemy territory of hours, not minutes.