Hurricane vs.Bf-110

[tomo pauk]

It's time to clash the two classics. Which one was better one-on-one, then, in many different roles, then, whatever you can think of it.

 

[Flyboy2]

I think it is pretty obvious that one-on-one the Hurricane wins over the Bf-110, as combat experience during the Battle of Britian shows. Bf-110's were just to heavy to combat with the faster and nimbler Hurricanes. In a dogfight, I believe that the Hurricane wins.
However in different roles the Bf-110 wins because of its night fighter varients but I think that is a comparison of two completely different aircraft. The Hurricane is a single engined fighter while the Bf-110 is a twin engined fighter bomber/night fighter.

 

[lesofprimus]

The 110 was meant as a long range escort...

 

[KrazyKraut]

... but it turned out it didn't do that very well. So like Flyboy2 said, 1 on 1 a Hurricane will have the edge. As far as many different roles are concerned, the Bf 110 pretty much did them all at one point or another.

 

[Clay_Allison]

A three seat fighter is just as silly a prewar idea as a self-defending bomber. The British should have called the 110 the acemaker. Might as well try to dogfight in an SBD Dauntless.

 

[Thorlifter]

I think it is pretty obvious that one-on-one the Hurricane wins over the Bf-110, as combat experience during the Battle of Britian shows. Bf-110's were just to heavy to combat with the faster and nimbler Hurricanes. In a dogfight, I believe that the Hurricane wins.
However in different roles the Bf-110 wins because of its night fighter varients but I think that is a comparison of two completely different aircraft. The Hurricane is a single engined fighter while the Bf-110 is a twin engined fighter bomber/night fighter.

I agree with you the Hurricane wins hands down one on one. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Hurricane when comparing these two planes in accomplishing multiple roles. The Hurricane was a good fighter, fighter/bomber, attack, navy fighter (sea hurricane and the Hurricats), and intruder.

 

[Juha]

Now Bf 110 wasn't as bad as its reputation is in English speaking countries. I would say that Hurricane I had a bit more than slight edge over Bf 110C/D. In North-Africa Hurricane I Trops (it had worse performance than normal Mk I) fought a draw against Bf 110Cs/Ds before Bf 109s arrived there. Usually in those combats the side which saw the enemy first got better results. So IMHO Hurricane Mk I Trop and Bf 110C/D were more or less equal.

Juha

 

[Eurofighter]

As everyone here has already pointed out the Hurricane had the edge against the Me 110 but since the doctrine of a heavy fighter proved to be a failure in the Battle of Britain the 110 was however a very succesful aircraft in several other roles.

 

[kool kitty89]

There were some cases where twin engine 2-seat "cruiser" or "destroyer" type aircraft were actually superior to their single engined single seat contemporaries. In particular there is the Fokker G.I, which could out-climb, out run, and had similar maneuverability (worse roll, better turn) than the Fokker D.XXI.

I beleive the Bf 110C was actually slightly faster (~10-15 mph) than the Hurricane Mk.I, should be better in a dive as well, though climb, turn, and maneuverability were worse and while speed is the most important factor the difference here is too small to be difinative. (it could probably use Boom Zoom tactics, though this ability depends on the situation)

 

[JoeB]

Now Bf 110 wasn't as bad as its reputation is in English speaking countries. I would say that Hurricane I had a bit more than slight edge over Bf 110C/D. In North-Africa Hurricane I Trops (it had worse performance than normal Mk I) fought a draw against Bf 110Cs/Ds before Bf 109s arrived there. Usually in those combats the side which saw the enemy first got better results. So IMHO Hurricane Mk I Trop and Bf 110C/D were more or less equal.

Another example is Hurricane v Bf110 combats on the Continent in 1940 before the BoB, also about even. There's a tendency to judge too much based on the BoB, assuming it typical when in fact it was a relative low point in German fighter effectiveness in the whole first half of WWII. Goes for 109 v Brit fighter comparisons too, the 109* held a greater advantage in most other situations into 1943 than it did in the BoB.

*109 units, not 'pure plane v plane combat effectiveness' which I doubt is possible to fully factually analyze.

Joe

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It depends on the role being used. As a fighter I would take a Hurricane any day, but the 110 was a very decent (not the best) night fighter.

I also do not see what having 3 seats has to do with anything...

 

[Clay_Allison]

I'd take my chances flying nearly any early war single seat fighter against the BF-110 one on one (M.S.406, Polikarpov I-16, C.200, Fiat G.50, Brewster Buffalo, Seversky P-35) I might be unfair, but it was a 3 seat light bomber, not a fighter.

 

[delcyros]

I take the chance to defend the underdog.
What does the Bf-110C has as advantage against the Hurricane?
(A)It has a significant speed advantage, beeing lowest at the deck but increasing with altitude. Some Hurricane´s have 100 oct. fuel 12lbs boost, allowing them to keep up with the 110C at low and medium altitudes but generally spoken, the 110C is faster except for a short timeframe at BoB where no DB-601N is yet deployed but the Hurricane does have the 12 lbs boost.
(B) It dives faster. In fact, the limiting dive speed is 50 kp/h larger on the 110C than was on the -109E. It also dives while keeping the engines under power during negative g-loads
(C) It has the most deadly armement of fighters from that period. 2x20mm MGFF/M and four LMG concentrated into the nose gives more than an argument. Don´t attack a 110C head on!
(D) It has a significant range advantage
(E) It climbs better than a Hurricane!
(F) It may take more punishment than a single engined A/C

Of course, the 110C also has a share of it´s problems:

(I) It´s roll charackteristics are poor, esspeccially in initial roll rate, meaning that more agile fighters do have an general edge in maneuverability
(II) While it has a good rate of turn for a twin, it does not match the turnrate of the Hurricane
(III) Worse than all, it has a poor acceleration, meaning that low slow, the 110C driver has very few options
(IV) It´s a large target to hit

Theoretically spoken, good 110C driver may use the superior level speed, climb and dive to boom zoom a Hurricane to death, firing with it´s heavy nose armement during the pass while keeping the initiative.
If I compare these arbitrary selected advantages disadvantages it looks for me personally quite a bit like the setup for the P-47C in 1943 over Germany: worser acceleration, maneuverability and climb but better high altitude performance, faster and better diving ability with quite a good armement.
What do You think?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I might be unfair, but it was a 3 seat light bomber, not a fighter.

Again I ask, what does 3 seats have to do with it?

 

[KrazyKraut]

It was originally designed with three seats (as requested by the original heavy fighter doctrine), this was later changed to the two seat arrangement.

It's the reason why the cockpit is comparably long and also the reason why it could be made into a pretty decent night fighter (unlike the Me 210/410).

 

[claidemore]

Again I ask, what does 3 seats have to do with it?

Dead weight. (Eventually!)

 

[Kwiatek]

I take the chance to defend the underdog.
What does the Bf-110C has as advantage against the Hurricane?
(A)It has a significant speed advantage, beeing lowest at the deck but increasing with altitude. Some Hurricane´s have 100 oct. fuel 12lbs boost, allowing them to keep up with the 110C at low and medium altitudes but generally spoken, the 110C is faster except for a short timeframe at BoB where no DB-601N is yet deployed but the Hurricane does have the 12 lbs boost.
(B) It dives faster. In fact, the limiting dive speed is 50 kp/h larger on the 110C than was on the -109E. It also dives while keeping the engines under power during negative g-loads
(C) It has the most deadly armement of fighters from that period. 2x20mm MGFF/M and four LMG concentrated into the nose gives more than an argument. Don´t attack a 110C head on!
(D) It has a significant range advantage
(E) It climbs better than a Hurricane!
(F) It may take more punishment than a single engined A/C

Of course, the 110C also has a share of it´s problems:

(I) It´s roll charackteristics are poor, esspeccially in initial roll rate, meaning that more agile fighters do have an general edge in maneuverability
(II) While it has a good rate of turn for a twin, it does not match the turnrate of the Hurricane
(III) Worse than all, it has a poor acceleration, meaning that low slow, the 110C driver has very few options
(IV) It´s a large target to hit

Theoretically spoken, good 110C driver may use the superior level speed, climb and dive to boom zoom a Hurricane to death, firing with it´s heavy nose armement during the pass while keeping the initiative.
If I compare these arbitrary selected advantages disadvantages it looks for me personally quite a bit like the setup for the P-47C in 1943 over Germany: worser acceleration, maneuverability and climb but better high altitude performance, faster and better diving ability with quite a good armement.
What do You think?

I think that Bf 110 C-4 with Db 601 A-1 engine dont have such adventage over Hurricane like many think. Hurricane during BoB time with Merlin III engine was allowed to 12 lbs with 100 octane fuel. So at low alt the maximum speed od Hurricane was very close to Bf 110. Hurricane reach its maximum speed at lower alt ~3500m then Bf 110 which reach maximum at 4500m so at higher alts 110 have small adventage but not so much. Hurricane have small adventage in climb rate, manouverbility and acceleration. Service celling was the same.
Dont know what was 110C -4 maximum dive speed - Hurricane had 650 km/h - so possilby 110 have here some adventages. Generally great adventage of 110 was armement.
I think thats way 110 pilots was little shocked over Britain - their Destroyers were not so good like they thought.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was originally designed with three seats (as requested by the original heavy fighter doctrine), this was later changed to the two seat arrangement.

It's the reason why the cockpit is comparably long and also the reason why it could be made into a pretty decent night fighter (unlike the Me 210/410).

Yes I know, but I would still like him to explain why that puts it at a disadvantage over the Hurricane.

 

[slaterat]

In their designed roles the 110 was an absolute failure, as a long range escort fighter, the Hurricane a complete success as a short range interceptor/bomber destroyer . In their second lives they both found success the 110 as a nightfighter and the Hurricane in ground attack.

JoeB wrote

Another example is Hurricane v Bf110 combats on the Continent in 1940 before the BoB, also about even. There's a tendency to judge too much based on the BoB, assuming it typical when in fact it was a relative low point in German fighter effectiveness in the whole first half of WWII. Goes for 109 v Brit fighter comparisons too, the 109* held a greater advantage in most other situations into 1943 than it did in the BoB.

So is it only fair to count situations where The Germans had the advantage? Even with the advantages of combat experience, superior tactics and concentration of force, the 110 might of been 1:1 with the Hurricane in France. This is fighting against Hurricanes with a 2 blade fixed pitch prop or 2 pitch 3 blade props, 80 oct fuel and guns set to an 800 yd convergence.The Hurricane that took part in the Battle of Britain was greatly improved over the ones operating in France in 39-40 Sometimes refered to as the Hurricane 1a, a BoB hurricane has 100 oct fuel, 12 lbs boost, dixon/dewilde ammo, 250 yds convergence, ejector exhaust, 3 blade constant speed prop. Combine these improvements with better tactics ,ie finger 4, and combat experienceand its a whole new ball game.

Slaterat

 

[Clay_Allison]

Again I ask, what does 3 seats have to do with it?

You design a place for another human being, you get a bunch of added on weight as well as changing the shape of the airframe to a less aerodynamic one.

As a night fighter, having the extra space to put the radar in was a good thing and it was probably on par with the Black Widow and the Mosquito in that role.

Had it been designed as a lighter more streamlined single seat aircraft, it might have been comparable to a P-38. Something like the Fw-187 but with 601s instead of Jumos.