Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by P-40K-5, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. P-40K-5

    P-40K-5 Banned

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    in a Hypothetical DogFight between Boyington in a F4U-1A and Hartmann in
    a Bf109G-10, who do you think would win? or would they, as I think... both
    end up bailing out?
     
  2. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    What speed, altitude, aircraft fuel loads and more importantly, who sees who first?
     
  3. Trilisser

    Trilisser Member

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    How about a compelety even scenario with neither having tactical advantage, i.e. both would be flying side by side and the combat would begin on order...Just like in a real man to man duel.
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Experienced pilots avoid that scenerio whenever possible. Boyington will extend away from the fight using the superior diving ability of his F4U. Hartmann will evade the fight using the superior climb of his Me-109G.
     
  5. Lighthunmust

    Lighthunmust Banned

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    When they eventually turned into the attack, I suspect Hartmann would soon realize why Japanese pilots in aircraft with 4 or fewer guns did not like facing six .50 cals spewing many more projectiles, in a larger pattern, directed at their faces, and from an aircraft providing much more pilot protection from frontal attack. Hartmann would be wise to refuse a frontal attack.
     
  6. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Well lets see...

    As Joe has already pointed out, there are just too many factors involved. Speed, Altitude, Position, etc.

    So before this turns into the Luftwaffe Fan vs. US Fan, the winner would be the pilot that would have the advantage of surprise. The one who did not see the other will get it. ;)
     
  7. P-40K-5

    P-40K-5 Banned

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    head-on, about a mile apart, both flying around 350mph, 10000ft altitude, they both no each-other is there.
    they both know the armament of each others mounts. no surprises.
     
  8. Lighthunmust

    Lighthunmust Banned

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    As the originator of the thread specified they are going to dogfight so there cannot be any surprise because if either of these skilled pilots caught the other napping it would become a permanent nap before a dogfight began. Hartmann in a 109, Boyington in a Corsair, Hartmann in a Corsair, Boyington in a 109 the result would be the same in a surprise attack. If P-40K-5's scenario could be conducted 100 times I think Hartmann being a more disciplined pilot would likely win more than 50 times unless he foolishly made mostly frontal attacks.
     
  9. Lighthunmust

    Lighthunmust Banned

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    #9 Lighthunmust, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
    And there you go. Details provided. You were too quick on the draw for me P-40K-5.


    P.S. Another detail to consider is that Boyington's combat experience was with very good to average enemy pilots flying aircraft that his Corsair outclassed in almost every parameter. While Hartmann also had this experience he also had experience in combat against the best pilots flying the best planes the Allies had. Again I say Hartmann prevails more than 50% of the time regardless of if he is flying a 109 or F4U.
     
  10. Coors9

    Coors9 Member

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    Didn't our 109 driver say most of his kills , they never saw him coming. That's smart combat. Personally, I'd compare the two to football. One's the QB/reciever type and the other is on the line or tight end. They all do a great job, just one' clean, one's dirty. I can't see a clear winner. Maybe pure luck would decide this one.
     
  11. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    Didn't the Bf 109's 20mm cannons have a greater range then the P-40/F4U .50 Cal MGs?
     
  12. renrich

    renrich Active Member

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    Depends on whether Boyington had too much to drink the night before. How about Joe Foss versus Hartmann in the same AC? As far as trajectory is concerned the 50 cals probably shoot flatter than the 20 mms. The Corsair is probably faster than the ME at all altitudes. The ME can climb faster and can maybe turn better. The Corsair is faster in dive and can roll better. Depending on fuel state, the Corsair can wait until the ME runs out of gas?
     
  13. Lighthunmust

    Lighthunmust Banned

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    My take on Boyington from reading his autobiography, Frank Walton the VMF 214 Intel Officer’s book, and other sources, is that Boyington was a great inspirational leader like Douglas Bader, but not necessarily a great administrator or tactician. He was a good pilot but not necessarily a great pilot. He was certainly a man with no qualms about stretching the truth, a sometime irresponsible drinker, and not necessarily self-disciplined in combat. In short he was a great guy to rally the gang, walked the walk but frequently just talked the talk, and was prone to erratic performance on the ground and in the air. I think a great amount of Boyington’s success it due to being a good pilot and more importantly a deliberate killer flying against well piloted inferior aircraft.

    My take on Hartmann is he was a much more consistent, methodical, self-disciplined, business like fighter pilot.

    My take on Joe Foss, who I actually spoke to on occasion in the 1970s when he used to hangout at Don's Sport Shop in Scottsdale, is that he would be a far more dangerous adversary for Hartmann and for all the reasons that Boyington would not be and all the reasons Hartmann was. Joe did in a Wildcat what Boyington did in a Corsair!

    I took a quick look at the spiffy thread on guns vs cannon in the weapon systems section of the forum. I am talking about the one with the diagrams of centerline armament vs wing armament firing patterns. I do not agree with much of the conclusions. I think the author and others who have written about the subject are grossly underestimating the inaccuracy of fighter pilots trying to hit targets simultaneously moving in multiple directions from an aircraft doing the same. All the great charts and graphs from multiple sources all seem to be based on an ideal situation when the target is perfectly aligned with the gun’s zero and is stationary long enough to absorb the entire burst of projectiles. This almost never happens. With ranges greater than “aircraft fills the windshield” a couple of factors don’t seem to get mentioned much. One is that few people shoot skeet with rifles and the target is not actually where you see it. It is a great deal easier to hit with many sufficiently destructive projectiles flying in a larger dense pattern than it is to hit with far fewer very destructive projectiles flying in a very smaller less dense pattern. When looking at a fighter through a optically distorting even if flat windshield, over a hot engine cowling, through a moving propeller, and across hundred of yards of light refracting air; where you see the aircraft and where it actually is are somewhat different. All of these things and more make a fighter without the benefit of a radar ranging gunsight firing a larger and denser pattern of sufficiently destructive projectiles as effective and probably more effective than one firing narrow less dense patterns.

    Does one German 20mm or 30mm have greater destructive range? I don’t think so in realistic situations and maybe not even in ideal conditions compared to 6 HMG. I do think that with two aircraft making head on attacks on each other a 3 gun centerline armament will require just as much accuracy from the pilot as a 6 gun wing armament if not more. The dispersion of 6 HMG in the wings can compensate for a lack of perfect aim. Considering all the Russian pilots who thought as few as 2 heavy machine guns were enough to bring down a Me-109 at close range I think 6 and 8 at longer ranges more than sufficient.

    I think the ME-109G-10 version with the 1,850hp DB605 would be as fast or faster than the F4U-1 specified in the thread scenario. The ME-109 will be a smaller and harder to hit target. The ME-109 cannon if accurately fired for even a quarter of a second can end the engagement. The best tactic for the Corsair pilot may indeed be to “wait until the ME runs out of gas”. The second best tactic may be forcing head on attacks. One .50cal hole out of hundreds of bullets fired kills a pilot or drains away all coolant from the Messerschmitt. The Messershmitt will also run out of ammunition before the Corsair.

    I still think regardless of who is flying what aircraft that Hartmann prevails more than 50% of the time against Boyington. Against Foss 50/50.
     
  14. billswagger

    billswagger Member

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    At that height and speed, the F4U has the advantage.
    The logic reads like this.
    F4U out turns Fw190.
    Fw190 out turns 109.
    therefore...F4U out turns the 109.

    The only real advantage of the 109 is climb.
    Otherwise, i think the duel would be reminiscent of a P-47/109 match up, except the F4U was said to be much more maneuverable. Less weight, and similar power.

    I think the 109 would have its hands full other than in a vertical battle.

    Armament??
    I don't think it matters much, ultimately it would come down to tactics.
     
  15. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Oops missed that somehow...;)
     
  16. norab

    norab Well-Known Member

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    I think a much fairer match would be to put both in the same plane, say a Ki-84 that neither was familar with
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Nothing wrong with that. Experienced pilots employ tactics that utilize their aircrafts best performance features. Erich Hartmann will fight a vertical battle if he has a choice. Gregory Boyington will avoid such a battle if he has a choice.
     
  18. Lighthunmust

    Lighthunmust Banned

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    Dave I am sure you are more knowledgeable about the ME-109G series than me. Would the G-10 really only have the advantage in the vertical? I'll check again, but I thought the early F4U-1 did not really have any speed advantage on the G-10. P-40K-5 where are you? I know you are very knowledgeable about Messerschmitt 109 versions.
     
  19. P-40K-5

    P-40K-5 Banned

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    #19 P-40K-5, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
    Bf109G-10

    Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
    Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
    Max. Range: 400 miles
    Weight: 6158lbs
    Armament: Mk108 cannon two 13mm MG131 machine guns

    also for the other poster, Erich Hartmann wouldn't just fly around while Gregory waited for him to
    run out of fuel.
     
  20. Thorlifter

    Thorlifter Well-Known Member

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    After reading the previous threads, my opinion is that, all things being equal (altitude, speed, time of day, etc) is I would give the edge to Hartmann. And that pains me to say as I am a living mark for the Corsair, Boyington, and the Black Sheep.
     
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