Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[Juha]

I cannot resist to be a bit iconoclastic
Hypothetically say WO "Illu" Juutilainen or Capt. Olli Puhakka vs Hartmann, both flying 109G-6, conditions as in message #7.
I'd say that odds would have been against Hartmann, IMHO both Finns were better pilots and better shots than Hartmann. Illu also being a big powerful man, which would be a bonus at 350mph.

IMHO for ex Rall (exceptionally good in deflection shooting) or Lipfert (a bit duellist and a pilot who knew more than a couple tricks to ooze a bit more from his 109) would have been more dangerous opponents in a pure duel than Bubi.

Juha

 

[Juha]

At that height and speed, the F4U has the advantage.
The logic reads like this.
F4U out turns Fw190.
Fw190 out turns 109.
therefore...F4U out turns the 109.

In fact both German and Soviet tests indicated that 109G turned better than 190A

Juha

 

[Lighthunmust]

Bf109G-10

Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
Max. Range: 400 miles
Weight: 6158lbs
Armament: Mk108 cannon two 13mm MG131 machine guns

also for the other poster, Erich Hartmann wouldn't just fly around while Gregory waited for him to
run out of fuel.

Your speed and horsepower figures look to be more in line with what the "K" had and little high for a G-10.

From three sources I checked I get the following:

"Aircraft in Profile V5" article by J.R. Smith and I. Primmer - ME-109G-10 with DB605B and MW-50 = 428 mph at 25,000 feet with climb to 20,000 feet in 6 minutes, Endurance 55 minutes, Range 360 miles

"Great Book of Fighters" by Green and Swanborough - ME-109G-10 with DB605D = 1850hp, 426 mph at 24,280

"The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" article by Robert Grinsell - ME-109G-10 with DB605D with MW50 = 1,850 hp at takeoff. This book also mentions that due to Allied raids "a formalized standard Bf109G-10 was never achieved". So perhaps a few were as fast as your figures.

All sources list armament as one 20mm and two 12.7s or one 30mm and two 12.7s as "standard" armament.

After reading the previous threads, my opinion is that, all things being equal (altitude, speed, time of day, etc) is I would give the edge to Hartmann. And that pains me to say as I am a living mark for the Corsair, Boyington, and the Black Sheep.

When I was a little boy my Grandmother who was a pilot told me bedtime stories about The Flying Tigers, The Black Sheep, and Pappy Boyington. He is a sentimental favorite of mine also. My critical opinions of him in no way reduce my respect for his accomplishments. I even watched that ridiculous TV show in prime time and later reruns because I am such a sentimentalist.

I cannot resist to be a bit iconoclastic
Hypothetically say WO "Illu" Juutilainen or Capt. Olli Puhakka vs Hartmann, both flying 109G-6, conditions as in message #7.
I'd say that odds would have been against Hartmann, IMHO both Finns were better pilots and better shots than Hartmann. Illu also being a big powerful man, which would be a bonus at 350mph.

IMHO for ex Rall (exceptionally good in deflection shooting) or Lipfert (a bit duellist and a pilot who knew more than a couple tricks to ooze a bit more from his 109) would have been more dangerous opponents in a pure duel than Bubi.

Juha

I would greatly appreciate any elaboration you could make as my knowledge of Finnish pilots is lacking other than a general knowledge that they were as good as any. I agree that while Hartmann had the most victories that does not make him the most dangerous adversary.

In fact both German and Soviet tests indicated that 109G turned better than 190A

Juha

If I am interpreting the charts in AHT correctly the F4U-1 did not have any speed or climb advantages over the ME-109G-10. I am getting tired of typing so if any one wants to post specifics, thank you.

 

[Juha]

Bf109G-10

Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
Max. Range: 400 miles
Weight: 6158lbs
Armament: Mk108 cannon two 13mm MG131 machine guns

also for the other poster, Erich Hartmann wouldn't just fly around while Gregory waited for him to
run out of fuel.

Hello
IIRC 109G-10 had DB605DB engine T/O power 1850hp max speed 690km/h (429mph)
Your figures seems to be identical to those of 109K-4 with DB 605ASC or DC with 1,92ata (C3+MW50)

Juha

 

[Juha]

Hello Lighthunmust
Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen
pre-war regular NCO pilot, 94 kills, 437 combat sorties, known to be very good pilot, superb situation awarness, good shot.

Olli Puhakka
pre-war reserve pilot, 46 kills, 401 combat sorties, known to be exceptionally good pilot and good shot.

Kills are what they are credited for, as for every very succesful pilots the real number of victories is lower, Puhakka's figure is probably nearer to the real one than that of Juutilainen's.

Juha

 

[Lighthunmust]

Hello Lighthunmust
Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen
pre-war regular NCO pilot, 94 kills, 437 combat sorties, known to be very good pilot, superb situation awarness, good shot.

Olli Puhakka
pre-war reserve pilot, 46 kills, 401 combat sorties, known to be exceptionally good pilot and good shot.

Kills are what they are credited for, as for every very succesful pilots the real number of victories is lower, Puhakka's figure is probably nearer to the real one than that of Juutilainen's.

Juha

I would like to purchase a book on Finnish pilots and the aircraft they flew. Can you recommend one that is in English?

 

[Juha]

I would like to purchase a book on Finnish pilots and the aircraft they flew. Can you recommend one that is in English?

On memoirs translated in English
my favourite is Eino Luukkanen's one, but the English edition is old and probably difficult to find, was the publisher MacMillian?
Juutilainen's memoirs is also good and they took a new edition of it maybe some 10 years ago, its title was IIRC "The double Knight".
If you want to know the claims and the basic info on claimants, Kalevi Keskinen's and Kari Stenman's Ilmavoitot / Aerial Victories osa 1 and 2 are a good bi-language (Finnish and English) sources.
For a day-to-day combat history, try Kalevi Keskinen's and Kari Stenman's Suomen Ilmavoimat
Vol II 1928-40 covers Talvisota/the Winter War, The Continuation War is covered in Vols III-VI, each volume covers one year, Vol III 1941 and Vol VI 1944 are the most action packed, also bi-language books, lots of good quality photos, daily info also from Soviet side but clearly more sparsely than from Finnish side.

Juha

 

[renrich]

Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
Weight empty-4330 lb
Weight loaded-7700 lb
Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
Service ceiling 41200
Normal range 350 miles
Armament- one 30 mm cannon and two13 mm mg
According to my sources the 109G10 did not go into production until April, 1944. In which case, it should be matched with the F4U1D which was more powerful than the F4U1A and had a Vmax(combat power) of 425 mph.
The fact is that in WW2 a good pilot in a decent fighter, who is aware of his attacker, can avoid a successful gunnery run as long as he is physically capable of flying his plane. Reference Saburo Sakai when toward the end of the War, with one eye, avoided in a Zeke, numerous Hellcats. He could not shoot them but neither could they shoot him. If the Corsair pilot wants to he can evade until the Me has to go away for lack of fuel. On the other hand, since the Corsair is much more rugged and damage resistant than the Me, the Me pilot must avoid at all costs getting in the way of the six fifties. I expect it would be a draw, but otherwise the breaks would determine the winner.

 

[Juha]

Hello
Bf 109G-10 production began in Oct 44, Apr 44 was planned at first but because of DB 605D series engines were late, the beginning of production of G-10 was delayed. G-10 had normally 1 x20mm + 2x13mm and the U4 subtype had 1x30mm + 2x13mm. /R6 Rüstsatz was possible (2 gondola mounted MG151/20s)

Juha

 

[pinsog]

Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
Weight empty-4330 lb
Weight loaded-7700 lb
Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
Service ceiling 41200
Normal range 350 miles
Armament- one 30 mm cannon and two13 mm mg
According to my sources the 109G10 did not go into production until April, 1944. In which case, it should be matched with the F4U1D which was more powerful than the F4U1A and had a Vmax(combat power) of 425 mph.
The fact is that in WW2 a good pilot in a decent fighter, who is aware of his attacker, can avoid a successful gunnery run as long as he is physically capable of flying his plane. Reference Saburo Sakai when toward the end of the War, with one eye, avoided in a Zeke, numerous Hellcats. He could not shoot them but neither could they shoot him. If the Corsair pilot wants to he can evade until the Me has to go away for lack of fuel. On the other hand, since the Corsair is much more rugged and damage resistant than the Me, the Me pilot must avoid at all costs getting in the way of the six fifties. I expect it would be a draw, but otherwise the breaks would determine the winner.

Excellent post. I believe this sums it up.

 

[P-40K-5]

haha yup grabbed the K specs.. no matter.. anyways some of you are to fixated on the planes.. this
is more about the pilots. I feel Boyington is MORE likely to make a mistake, which will cost him. then
again, his (gregory's) unorthidox flying style might be an advantage.. then yet again, Hartmann has
probably seen all the tricks in the book.

one thing I know for sure, one can toss around the Bf109 like nobodies buisness.

Hartmann knew where to shoot to, he started at the engine followed down to the cockpit.
his prefered method. Boyington just opened up the 50cals.. knowing any hits anywhere on a
jap plane would be brutal. less precise, but effective on his enemies.

two very different flying styles, in relativly simular performing planes..

 

[Lighthunmust]

Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
Weight empty-4330 lb
Weight loaded-7700 lb
Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
Service ceiling 41200
Normal range 350 miles
Armament- one 30 mm cannon and two13 mm mg
According to my sources the 109G10 did not go into production until April, 1944. In which case, it should be matched with the F4U1D which was more powerful than the F4U1A and had a Vmax(combat power) of 425 mph.
The fact is that in WW2 a good pilot in a decent fighter, who is aware of his attacker, can avoid a successful gunnery run as long as he is physically capable of flying his plane. Reference Saburo Sakai when toward the end of the War, with one eye, avoided in a Zeke, numerous Hellcats. He could not shoot them but neither could they shoot him. If the Corsair pilot wants to he can evade until the Me has to go away for lack of fuel. On the other hand, since the Corsair is much more rugged and damage resistant than the Me, the Me pilot must avoid at all costs getting in the way of the six fifties. I expect it would be a draw, but otherwise the breaks would determine the winner.

Pilot vs Pilot I still think Hartmann wins more often regardless of whether he is in a ME-109 or F4U1-D.

All things considered if it was my neck on the line I would not hesitate in choosing the Corsair as my mount. It brings so much more to the fight than just pure flight performance.

On this forum there is much written about cannon vs gun and centerline guns vs wing guns. In forty years of reading I cannot immediately recall any American pilots complaining about the accuracy and effectiveness of 6 or 8 HMG in the wing.

 

[Lighthunmust]

.. this is more about the pilots. I feel Boyington is MORE likely to make a mistake, which will cost him. then again, his (gregory's) unorthidox flying style might be an advantage.. then yet again, Hartmann has
probably seen all the tricks in the book.

Roger that.

 

[Juha]

Hello Lighthunmust
Luukkanen's memoirs
Luukkanen, Eino. Fighter Over Finland: the Memoirs of a Fighter Pilot. London: Macdonald Company Ltd.., 1963. (Reprinted 1980 by Arno Press, NY as ISBN 0-405-12191-1. and in 1989 by Time-Life, NY as ISBN 0-80949-620-8.)

 

[Lighthunmust]

On memoirs translated in English
my favourite is Eino Luukkanen's one, but the English edition is old and probably difficult to find, was the publisher MacMillian?
Juutilainen's memoirs is also good and they took a new edition of it maybe some 10 years ago, its title was IIRC "The double Knight".
If you want to know the claims and the basic info on claimants, Kalevi Keskinen's and Kari Stenman's Ilmavoitot / Aerial Victories osa 1 and 2 are a good bi-language (Finnish and English) sources.
For a day-to-day combat history, try Kalevi Keskinen's and Kari Stenman's Suomen Ilmavoimat
Vol II 1928-40 covers Talvisota/the Winter War, The Continuation War is covered in Vols III-VI, each volume covers one year, Vol III 1941 and Vol VI 1944 are the most action packed, also bi-language books, lots of good quality photos, daily info also from Soviet side but clearly more sparsely than from Finnish side.

Juha

Hello Lighthunmust
Luukkanen's memoirs
Luukkanen, Eino. Fighter Over Finland: the Memoirs of a Fighter Pilot. London: Macdonald Company Ltd.., 1963. (Reprinted 1980 by Arno Press, NY as ISBN 0-405-12191-1. and in 1989 by Time-Life, NY as ISBN 0-80949-620-8.)

Thank you Juha. I will look for them. By the way last night I ordered "Finland's Chosen War" based on the recommendation of Forum member from Finland, Trilisser.

 

[renrich]

I don't know what kind of mistake an experienced pilot like Boyington could make that could get him shot down but anything is possible. Hartmann is going to have to use energy tactics probably so all Boyington has to do is be aware of Hartmann and ruin his shot. Both fighters are going to have to use a lot of power which means a lot of fuel which means that Hartmann is going to have to make it quick. If he closes with Boyington then the advantage goes to the Corsair. From what I have read about Hartmann, his tactics were to get so close the defender filled his windshield and then shoot. I don't think he was as good a gunner as, for instance, Marseille. With the probably better climb of the Me and better acceleration the option of getting out probably lies with Hartmann so he will be cautious in order to live to fight another day. Not sure that Boyington would be as cautious. He is in the tougher airplane, battle damage wise and knows he would have to work hard to pull the wings off a Corsair so he can try almost any maneuver. Probably the Corsair is the better gun platform and it is a superb and very steady diver and can roll very well, at least as well as the FW190.

This match reminds me of mock dogfights that Bob Johnson flew against Spits in early P47s before the paddle blade props.

 

[jim]

Helmut Lipfert in his book reports that during morning weather reconaicanse missions faced experienced russians pilots and enganged in 45 minutes dogfights . The wingmen were sent above and the leaders fought 1-1 . He concluded that it was almost impossible for anyone to score no matter what aircraft was flying. An experienced pilot can always defend himself effectively if not surprised or greatly outnumbered .
Having said that i believe Bf 109 was more suitable for classic dogfight than F4U-1 .Better speed,climb,turning but most importantly better acceleration.
About Eric Hartmann . He was not the most talented , not the absolutly best shot, not the best tactitian , not the best eyesight , not the best pilot, not the physicaly strongest, not the luckiest. But in all categories was very good and being very disciplined and lucky stayed alive to fight long enough (1400 missions!) to surpass every other ace. But in my opinion , while he is famous for what he did during the war , he is great for what he did after the war.

 

[P-40K-5]

Jim,

I agree, except I think Hartmann was a brilliant tactician. he must be. never got shot down by an enemy a/c and never lost
a wingman. he had to think about himself, his wingman, the enemy a/c, and any other non-friendlies around.

 

[Lighthunmust]

I don't know what kind of mistake an experienced pilot like Boyington could make that could get him shot down.

Perhaps the same one that got him shot down. Of course Hartmann was shot down multiple times. Which reminds me of the saying "You learn more from your mistakes than your successes."

Yes Boyington was an experienced pilot but that also reminds me of the saying "There is 20 years of experience and then there is 1 year of experience repeated 20 times."

Boyington's experience was against well piloted aircraft inferior to the Corsair in most performance parameters.

Hartmann's experience was far broader and included surviving attacks from opponents flying on occasion superior aircraft. As far as his marksmanship is concerned: I believe someone recently posted a story about him attacking 3 Sturmoviks in formation with precise shots to the radiators that brought down all three.

 

[Lighthunmust]

Jim,

.... Hartmann ...... never got shot down by an enemy a/c .......

Really? I thought he was several times but always survived.