Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[P-40K-5]

Really? I thought he was several times but always survived.

debris from enemy a/c he shot down forced him to belly land a couple of time. the other 5 times was from
russian flak.

 

[renrich]

A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills. I believe that Boyington was shot down in a multiple AC fracas where he was surprised from his six. Much different than a one v one. The Corsair was better at angles than the FW and the FW was better than the Me, I have read so the Corsair has the edge in an angles fight. Johnson could whip the Spit which had the same advantages over the Jug which the Me has over the Corsair. I wonder if Boyington knew about Johnson's tactics? I still think it is a draw.

Page 126, "Horrido" Hartmann--" My only tactic was to wait until I had the chance to attack the enemy and then close in at high speed. I opened fire only when the windshield was black with the enemy. Wait!-until the enemy covers your windshield." ....."at minimum range......it does not matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver." Sounds like he liked to get very close on an unsuspecting enemy or one who could not evade and execute a low or no deflection shot. That kind of gunnery was probably responsible for the vast majority of the kills in WW2 on all sides. On the contrary, Boyington was trained by the USN in high deflection shooting which would be a big advantage in a one V one. Hartmann was downed 16 times so he had to have been a victim of an enemy fighter sometime.

Page 31, "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" Robert L Shaw- Regarding gun attacks-" As long as the defender has awareness, speed, and altitude for maneuvering, he can make the task of the attacking gunfighter almost impossible." I am sure that both Boyington and Hartmann were both aware of that fact. Consequently, with two rather evenly matched fighters, neither pilot was likely to be successful in a one v one. In a P51, if the pilot had awareness, speed and altitude, he had little to fear from a single fighter, even a Me 262!

 

[P-40K-5]

' A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills '

believe me, if the russians ever shot down Hartmann, the WHOLE world would have knew about it.
from whats available. no russian ever made a claim of shooting down Erich Hartmann.

also, there are many many pilots on both sides with victories that never got shot down by an enemy
a/c.

 

[P-40K-5]

also, many years ago there was a big whoopie-doo about Hartmanns kills. on both
sides ( west German / American historians) conclusion: 352 kills.

 

[Lighthunmust]

A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills. I believe that Boyington was shot down in a multiple AC fracas where he was surprised from his six. Much different than a one v one. The Corsair was better at angles than the FW and the FW was better than the Me, I have read so the Corsair has the edge in an angles fight. Johnson could whip the Spit which had the same advantages over the Jug which the Me has over the Corsair. I wonder if Boyington knew about Johnson's tactics? I still think it is a draw.

Put Joe Foss in the Corsair and I will agree to a draw or better.

 

[P-40K-5]

Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52

 

[Snautzer01]

I dont think they would have attacked each other. They were very aware of the risk taking on a pilot that could match their abilities.

 

[Juha]

also, many years ago there was a big whoopie-doo about Hartmanns kills. on both
sides ( west German / American historians) conclusion: 352 kills.

Really
when over 99% of Hartmann's claims were against Soviet a/c, how West German and US historians could many years ago confirm all his alleged kills? Can you name the historians? And several serious Russian researchers had during recent years agreed that while many German aces were very reliable claimers, for ex Barkhorn and Lipfert, Hartmann's claim accuracy wasn't amongst the best. And those Russians are those who has access to Soviet data which is essential, if one wants to check the claims against real losses.

Juha

 

[P-40K-5]

can I name them? no! lol. it was a long time ago. 1980's somewhere around that time.
dosn't seemed to have been challenged since(?).

 

[Juha]

can I name them? no! lol. it was a long time ago. 1980's somewhere around that time.
dosn't seemed to have been challenged since(?).

Now how without access on info on Soviet losses they reached their conclusion? BTW how many Mustang victories Bubi had according those historians?

Juha

 

[Snautzer01]

Soviet data which is essential,

Juha

So soviet data is without propaganda?

as i might add is the german data on Hartmann (There must be a reason why he only made it to Lieutenant Colonel in the new german Luftwaffe that was commanded by his former friends
and it isnt the F104)

 

[P-40K-5]

Now how without access on info on Soviet losses they reached their conclusion? BTW how many Mustang victories Bubi had according those historians?

Juha

i don't know how they got info on russian losses. maybe they had accsess to some records.
I think Bubi got one victory in the west while in command for a couple weeks with JG53.
No Idea what he shot down.

 

[renrich]

Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.

As for the credits to Hartmann, Marseille, etc, Saburo, Bong, O Hare, whoever. My guess if all credits were compared to actual losses the totals would come down at least 25% and some as high as 50%. O Hare was credited with six Betties on his memorable day, later reduced to five. The IJN records show only four Betties downed that day. It was usually not dishonesty but just errors, easily explainable. He sees a Betty on fire going down through a layer of clouds. Another pilot sees the Betty come out of the clouds and crash in the sea. Confirmed kill. But the Betty going down through the clouds was a different one that went into the sea. And since it was seen by another pilot who got his time and position mixed up, it got counted twice and the one going down in flames through the cloud, put out the fires and limped home.

 

[Juha]

i don't know how they got info on russian losses. maybe they had accsess to some records.
I think Bubi got one victory in the west while in command for a couple weeks with JG53.
No Idea what he shot down.

Hello P-40
I bet that in 80s they didn't have access to Soviet military records. Moreover, vast majority of LW records was destroyed during late part of WWII and especially during the last days of the Reich. Even 2003 Finnish edition of The Blonde Knight had the Bubi's victory list in which on victories 267-290 only info is that those had happened sometimes between 25 Jun and 23 Aug 44, same in victories 333-346 (sometimes between 6 – 27 Feb 45). How a heck one can conclude if all those claims were valid or not without any concrete info on date or the victim, saying nothing on time and place. In 80s situation was probably even worse. Nowadays situation is better because of some archival findings and we know some 333 Hartman's claims, vast majority with times, there is still a gap at the beginning of 45.

Juha

 

[P-40K-5]

maybe President Ronald Reagan was a fan of Erich Hartmann? pulled a few strings, got some results LOL.
anyways, Erich vs Gregory... whats your 'Pik'???

 

[Juha]

Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.

As for the credits to Hartmann, Marseille, etc, Saburo, Bong, O Hare, whoever. My guess if all credits were compared to actual losses the totals would come down at least 25% and some as high as 50%. O Hare was credited with six Betties on his memorable day, later reduced to five. The IJN records show only four Betties downed that day. It was usually not dishonesty but just errors, easily explainable. He sees a Betty on fire going down through a layer of clouds. Another pilot sees the Betty come out of the clouds and crash in the sea. Confirmed kill. But the Betty going down through the clouds was a different one that went into the sea. And since it was seen by another pilot who got his time and position mixed up, it got counted twice and the one going down in flames through the cloud, put out the fires and limped home.

I bet that also Hartmann overclaimed, and that is what several Russian researchers say. Why, I don't know but one possible reason was his combat style combined to usual Soviet numerical superiority. Hartmann's method was very effective and relatively safe to himself, I'd say optimal tactic for a ace even if I doubt that it was optimal for WM, almost all kills were against fighters, only 15 Il-2s IIRC.

While Bubi's combat method was effective MHO it didn't make him most dangerous duellist. On Boyington, I have only hazy recollection on him and his tactics and hazy recollection that also he/his units was not the most reliable claimer over Salomons.

Juha

 

[Juha]

maybe President Ronald Reagan was a fan of Erich Hartmann? pulled a few strings, got some results LOL.
anyways, Erich vs Gregory... whats your 'Pik'???

Hello P-40
as I wrote in my previous message to Renrich, my recollection on Boyington are too hazy, also I don't have time to study carefully F4U vs Bf 109G-10 parameters. All can say that G-10 is my favorite 109 alongside with F-4 and that Swedish P-51 pilots and Illu Juutilainen have teach me that in duels the better climber had advance. So just guessing I'd give a slight advance to Hartmann and G-10.

Juha

BTW, hopefully Bubi is flying a normal G-10 because of MK 108 tended to jam during high G manoeuvres and 2 MG 131s would have been rather weak armament against Corsair.

 

[Coors9]

Aaaahhhh Gentile would kick both their butt's......

 

[Juha]

BTW a good site on LW aces, basic info and update claim lists, for Bubi
Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann

Juha

 

[Lighthunmust]

Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.
.

I think if 40 second Boyd could figure it out in say, oh, I don't know, maybe 2/3s of a minute, either Hartmann or Boyington could have in the same or more time.

While Bubi's combat method was effective MHO it didn't make him most dangerous duellist.

Juha

Yup, snipers are not usually knife fighters, but I known some that are pretty good with a knife.

Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52

I think like a successful sales man, he preferred to go for the easy sale but certainly knew how to make the hard sale when necessary.

Aaaahhhh Gentile would kick both their butt's......

You certainly may be right, unless Godfrey got there first.