Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[tyrodtom]

Under stress and the influence of adrenaline, even in sports, people can do things they normally wouldn't do.
We've all seen people do uncharacteristic things under those conditions, now just think of a quatam leap of additional pressure put on a person when the bullets start to fly.

 

[Readie]

Steve Tom
Back to normal I see....
Disappointing eh?
Cheers
John

 

[P-40K-5]

Under stress and the influence of adrenaline, even in sports, people can do things they normally wouldn't do.
We've all seen people do uncharacteristic things under those conditions, now just think of a quatam leap of additional pressure put on a person when the bullets start to fly.

yes very correct. but still, what would one call that action? was it a court-matial offence? I appreciate a good discussion, thanks guys.

John,
please refrain from troll posting in an otherwise good thread which you seem to do when I post. thank you very much.

 

[Lighthunmust]

It wasn't a pointless attack, just a surprising one.


Once Maxis's hands were raised to surrender, the 56 year old Smith shot Maxis in the head anyways, what would you call it?
I know other countries did the same, but thats not the discussion here.

By the time in the war of Bodenplatte any attack was a pointless attack, and as a surprise attack it was a suicidal disaster that accomplished nothing but needless killing. Only a failure of German military leadership to have the courage to kill Hitler and his cronies prevented a rational and rapid surrender.

I would call what Smith did a war crime, for which he was informally tried and judged by authorities there and found to be not guilty by reason of "temporary insanity".

You made this part of the discussion here when you mentioned a war crime. You followed this with a derogatory comment about the French and Russians implying they were culturally barbarians, then implied disgust that a American had sunk to that level, and implied middle-age was also a factor. The unstated insulting message in your remark is that Germans would never behave in such a manner. Moments before his murder the noble knight of the air had exercised the killing power of a thousand men on individual men who were relatively defenseless in comparison. In another time and place, with a different enemy he would have been flayed alive for what he did. As Brennus said as he threw his sword on the scales "Woe to the conquered". I think it best if we all avoid making any comment remotely judgmental of individual acts of barbarity by the belligerents. This will prevent replication of what I hope is your inadvertent insult of many people.

 

[P-40K-5]

By the time in the war of Bodenplatte any attack was a pointless attack, and as a surprise attack it was a suicidal disaster that accomplished nothing but needless killing. Only a failure of German military leadership to have the courage to kill Hitler and his cronies prevented a rational and rapid surrender.

I would call what Smith did a war crime, for which he was informally tried and judged by authorities there and found to be not guilty by reason of "temporary insanity".

You made this part of the discussion here you mentioned a war crime. You followed this with a derogatory comment about the French and Russians implying they were culturally barbarians, then implied disgust that a American had sunk to that level, and implied middle-age was also a factor. The unstated insulting message in your remark is that Germans would never behave in such a manner. Moments before his murder the noble knight of the air had exercised the killing power of a thousand men on individual men who were relatively defenseless in comparison. In another time and place, with a different enemy he would have been flayed alive for what he did. As Brennus said as he threw his sword on the scales "Woe to the conquered". I think it best if we all avoid making any comment remotely judgmental of individual acts of barbarity by the belligerents. This will prevent replication of what I hope is your inadvertent insult of many people.

ahh. lots of assumptions about me that your are making. Unfortunatly you are wrong for the most part with those assumptions.
I never once said that the Germans wouldn't do the same thing. not once. I don't know what war you read about, but the russians
were barbaians. Raping women children when they entered Berlin. Perhaps you could use a more apt desciption?

Smith wasn't tried for anything. It was swepted under the rug so-to-speak.

It was suicidal yes, only becouse the areas they very flying into was heavily defended with AAA for V1/V2 rockets. Adolf Galland
had a plan that would have crippled the Americans bought the Germans 3week to a month to regroup reorganize. but he was
denied. Devine intervention perhaps?

Regardless, it is was it is. the good guys won the war.

 

[Lighthunmust]

ahh. lots of assumptions about me that your are making. Unfortunatly you are wrong for the most part with those assumptions.
I never once said that the Germans wouldn't do the same thing. not once. I don't know what war you read about, but the russians
were barbaians. Raping women children when they entered Berlin. Perhaps you could use a more apt desciption?

Smith wasn't tried for anything. It was swepted under the rug so-to-speak.

It was suicidal yes, only becouse the areas they very flying into was heavily defended with AAA for V1/V2 rockets. Adolf Galland
had a plan that would have crippled the Americans bought the Germans 3week to a month to regroup reorganize. but he was
denied. Devine intervention perhaps?

Regardless, it is was it is. the good guys won the war.

I don't think you really understand the correct use of the word assumption. I did not assume anything about you. I merely stated my opinion of what you were implying. I think most people will agree with my opinion.

I am very aware of what the Russians did in Berlin and elsewhere. Why bring up behavior that the Germans and soldiers of every nation did to one extent of another. If it is to indicate the Russians were the worst offenders I think you need to broaden you reading list of WWII literature. By the way I have lived in Germany and been to Berlin twice. I think I have some concept of what the consequences of the war were for Germans.

I also think you do not understand the concept of nuance very well. My statement about Smith's "trial" obviously was not comprehended. Here is a more blunt explanation: The military leadership at the location of the incident informally considered what happened (trial) considered the metal state of Smith and the prevalent mental state of combatants (judged) and determined that under the conditions of combat anyone could have done what Smith did (ruled not guilty by reason of temporary insanity). If Smith had a history of such behavior or acted with premeditation he would probably receive a formal trial. If you served in the U.S. military you would be aware that Company and Field Grade Officers can use at their discretion non-judicial procedures for certain offenses. In wartime the bounds of discretion are frequently stretched far beyond anything in peacetime.

In my opinion your description of the conditions of Bodenplatte is far from reality. As far as Galland's plan, well many such never implemented plans are frequently lamented for the assumed success they were denied. This is usually done by the bitter vanquished, their descendants who attempt to emphasize nobility in defeat and not the ignobility of their ancestors other actions, and by individuals who have an unnatural affinity for both.

Yes "the good guys won the war" and it was the best thing that could have ever happened to Germany. This does not mean that individual Germans did not act with honor or bravery only that collectively they acted wrongly.

Whether you realize it or not, whether it was deliberate or inadvertent, you have greatly insulted many people. Why not just apologize? I am sure everyone is ready to give you the benefit of doubt and acceptance of your apology.

 

[P-40K-5]

sorry for using "assume/assuming" in the wrong context. English is not my First language.

 

[renrich]

Back on the subject of dog fights, here is a funny true story which illustrates how awareness can determine the outcome of a very one sided dogfight. This is from a book called "Flying Through Time" by James Doyle. A very good read about a man who flies an ancient Stearman around to the fields the Stearman flew out of during WW2. There are numerous anecdotes from pilots who trained on Stearmans and their experiences during the War. This one is from Captain Joseph C. Pinmetal, a P47 pilot in the AAF. I will not quote this story exactly but rather paraphrase it to shorten my typing agony. In Late July, 1944, Pinmetal's outfit got a short leave to go back to England for R&R. He and some of his pilots were sitting at Biggin Hill, awaiting transport back to France and nursing hangovers when they were called to the operations desk. They reported, thinking a transport was ready to take them back to their field. Instead they were put on a bus and driven down the tarmac to where six L-4s were parked. The L-4 was the Piper Cub with a 65 HP engine. The L-4s had recreational gear, tennis rackets, record players, basketballs, etc and extra gas tanks in the front seats and six of the fighter pilots were to ferry the L-4s across the channel. Pinmetal was the ranking officer and he was to fly the one L-4 with a radio. A navigational channel had been established from a spot on the English coast called Selsey Bill to a point close to Utah Beach. There was a "high cover" in place above the navigational channel and the radio was to be used in case the 'high cover" was needed to repel LW fighters.

The six L-4s with the six disgruntled American fighter pilots took off and were soon in a gaggle going across the channel. The planes all had different performance characteristics and Pinmetal was kept busy flying about making sure all were together. Around mid channel and at about 5000 feet, suddenly two yellow nosed FW190s came diving from above through the "formation" of L-4s. On the first pass through they did not shoot but rather seemed to want to terrify the pilots of the little planes, not realizing that the guys in the L-4s were fighter pilots. In stead of scattering all the L-4s turned in unison and pointed their noses at the FWs, like birds watching a hawk. In the meantime Pinmetal frantically called mayday to the "high cover" and the Brits up above answered. While he was talking to the Brits here came the two FWs with guns blazing. The moment they started shooting, all six L-4s went into violent maneuvers, hammerhead stalls, falling leafs, spins, side slips, half rolls, you name it. They were like balloons floating at the mercy of the winds. After three passes and about 1000 feet of lost altitude, the FWs had hit nothing and got smart, splitting up and coming from two different directions and one of the FWs dropped flaps and landing gear to slow down. About that time the "high cover" came screaming down and jumped the Germans and they hauled freight. Not a single hit had been scored on the L-4s but they all ran out of fuel just before they got to Utah Beach and all ditched in the surf where the pilots were picked up.

The moral of this story is that just because you have a superior airplane, if the other guy sees you coming, all is not lost.

 

[Lighthunmust]

Great story! A perfect example of a counterintuitive outcome to a weak versus strong engagement. Thank you for the pleasant change of topic.

 

[P-40K-5]

awesome story I must say. And yes, situational awareness will save ones butt alot of times. out of curiosity, becouse all six
L4's ditched in the sea, would that be considered a ' manuvering kill(s) '?

 

[Lighthunmust]

out of curiosity, becouse all six
L4's ditched in the sea, would that be considered a ' manuvering kill(s) '?

That's funny and true!

 

[Coors9]

I'm still going with Gentile.......

 

[drgondog]

in my honest opinion, superior numbers beat the Luftwaffe, not nessesarly
great planes or pilots. and not to mention the B-17 Lancasters destorying German Steel Factories fuel depots. when one is outnumber like the Luftwaffe was in 1944, no amount of experiance or tallent will save you. only luck will.

Perhaps you could illustrate with facts how the Luftwaffe was outnumbered over Germany - with specifics on superior numbers of Allied fighters versus, say LuftFlotte Reich - from Jan through July, 1944?

 

[norab]

To get back to the original question, I think it ends up going against whoever makes the first mistake

 

[Lighthunmust]

To get back to the original question, I think it ends up going against whoever makes the first mistake

I agree and in reality you usually only get to make one mistake in this deadly scenario before you are dead. This is why I suggested that if the scenario was run 100 times, Hartmann would win more that 50 times.

 

[drgondog]

I think I agree with odds favoring Hartmann versus any other fighter pilot. Would prefer Foss' chances over Boyington as he demonstrated great skill in an inferior airplane and would argue that any ace who racked up scores despite engaging with less capable fighters (Finn pilots come to mind, guys like Tex Hill and Allison and Herbst come to mind, many VVS aces come to mind, most Hurricane aces (Tuck, Bader, etc) come to mind.) would have a better chance than Boyington..

Recall also that Rall's last kill came when he had superior tactical advantage against Zemke's flight, had Zemke in a very poor tactical position but couldn't finish him off, then got caught in an inferior position and shot down. I would argue Rall as good as Hartmann, and also give very strong support to Bar and Ihlefeld in the West.

I don't detract from Boyington - having said that, Boyington's only fighter scores flying P-40 were against Type-97s in AVG as contrasted w/Foss, Hill, Landers, Thatch, O'Hare, etc - flying F4F/P-40's against many more Zero's.

 

[Readie]

most Hurricane aces (Tuck, Bader, etc) come to mind.) would have a better chance

There were Spitfire aces too. Johnnie Johnson. who claimed 34 victories over enemy aircraft, as well as seven shared victories, three shared probables, ten damaged, three shared damaged and one destroyed on the ground.This score made him the highest scoring Western Allied fighter ace against the German Luftwaffe, thus becoming the British, and Western Allied flying ace, with the greatest number of victories in the European War. Only Marmaduke Pattle claimed more victories overall than any other Western Allied pilot in Europe, but over half of his claims were made against the Italian Regia Aeronautica (Italian Royal Air Force) and a significant number of his claims cannot be verified.

Robert Roland Stanford Tuck Johnnie Johnson were gentleman to their boot heels as well.
Cheers
John

 

[tyrodtom]

Why has no one even mentioned Bong ? America's ace, verses Germany's ! Plus Bong was another pilot

who like to fill his winshield full of the enemy before he opened fire .

To be fair both pilots would either have to be in aircraft very familiar to them, so late model Me109, against later P38. Or in different aircraft from their usual .

Both seem to usually employ the same tactics, zoom in, blow em up quick, get out of dodge, don't get into a turning dogfight.

But IMO Hartman would have the edge, vastly more experienced.

 

[Lighthunmust]

Why has no one even mentioned Bong ? America's ace, verses Germany's ! Plus Bong was another pilot

who like to fill his winshield full of the enemy before he opened fire .

To be fair both pilots would either have to be in aircraft very familiar to them, so late model Me109, against later P38. Or in different aircraft from their usual .

Both seem to usually employ the same tactics, zoom in, blow em up quick, get out of dodge, don't get into a turning dogfight.

But IMO Hartman would have the edge, vastly more experienced.

I agree that Bong would be a better choice than Boyington. But like Boyington, Bong was flying an aircraft that was superior in most parameters to the well piloted but inferior aircraft of his opponents. Bong himself admits he was a poor marksman, hence his tactic of getting close. I wonder if he was actually an average or good marksman that had a more honest and realistic opinion of his abilities than most fighter pilots? I think Foss demonstrated greater fighting skill flying a Wildcat against Zeros than just about any PTO pilot in any aircraft.

 

[Readie]

We also have the celebrated Sailor Malan. Spitfire ace and gentleman flyer.

Sailor Malan's famous 10 Commandments of engagement

1. Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of one to two seconds only when your sights are definitely "ON"
2. Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of your body: have both hands on the stick: concentrate on your ring sight.
3. Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out".
4. Height gives you the initiative.
5. Always turn and face the attack.
6. Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
7. Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
8. When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as a top guard.
9. INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!


It was during the Battle Of Britain that Malan claimed perhaps his most famous victory none other than the famous Luftwaffe fighter Ace Werner Molders, Molders was the first Luftwaffe pilot of the second World War to reach the 20th victory mark. Molders was looking for his 27th victory, he had just claimed his 26th when his messerschmitt was raked with bullets. Had Spitfires been armed with cannon, Molders would not have been able to nurse his badly damaged machine back to the continent. When he landed, his leg wounds were bad enough to put him into hospital. It was to be another month before Molders could claim victim number twenty-seven. Malan scored his last victories for 74 Squadron in February 1941 when he shot down a Bf109 on the 2nd and shared a Do17 on the 5th. He was then posted to lead the Biggin Hill Wing on March 10th where he remained until August. During this period at Biggin Hill, Malan shot down twelve Bf109's, probably another Bf109, shared two more Bf109's and damaged nine more. In March 1944 he took command of 145 Wing, which consisted of 329, 340, 341 Squadrons (French). On D-Day, Malan led a Section of 340 Squadron as escorts to Horsa gliders being towed. Sailor Malan left the Raf in 1946 with the rank of Group Captain and along with his British awards, he was decorated with the Croix de Guerre (Belgian), Croix de Guerre (French) and the Czech Military Cross. He moved back to South Africa with his family. Sailor Malan finished the War with 27 confirmed victories and another 7 shared there are many conflicting reports to Malans actual total many believe the score to be far greater.

Any flyer that could have Molders is amongst the greatest of aces.
Cheers
John