Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[Kryten]

I was watching a programme about the Battle of Britain and this WAAF controller said
"it was'nt the fearless aces who were the real heroes, they could cope, it was the guys who were terrified but went anyway"
could'nt agree more!

 

[P-40K-5]

I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!

Erich Hartmann for instance.. Yes he was the Greatest Ace in history.. But I admire more for the simple fact he was always thinking about his
wingman too. probably the reason why he never lost a wingman.

 

[Readie]

I was watching a programme about the Battle of Britain and this WAAF controller said
"it was'nt the fearless aces who were the real heroes, they could cope, it was the guys who were terrified but went anyway"
could'nt agree more!

Absolutely right.

 

[Readie]

Erich Hartmann.I admire more for the simple fact he was always thinking about his
wingman too. probably the reason why he never lost a wingman.

Yes, a true team player. The LW had some inspired leaders like Galland and Mounders.
The RAF learnt a lot from LW tactics in the BoB.
Cheers
John

 

[P-40K-5]

Yes, a true team player. The LW had some inspired leaders like Galland and Mounders.
The RAF learnt a lot from LW tactics in the BoB.
Cheers
John

everybody learned alot on WWII I think.

 

[Readie]

everybody learned alot on WWII I think.

Lets hope so.
All the lessons were painfully learnt.
Cheers
John

 

[P-40K-5]

after looking through my book, BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope, I'll bet my last dollar that the pilot in question is:

Ofw. Franz Meindl, who flew Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765 'blaue 11', from 8./JG 11.

I highly recomend this book. He did amazing research into the actual victories/losses of the German during Operation Bodenplatte.

cheers.

more info:

Mtt-Reg Bf109 Plant

780301 to 780880 - Bf109G-14/AS Sept-Oct'44
780881 to 780999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS to Aug'44
781000 to 781210 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
781220 to 781999 - Bf109G-14/AS unknown number Bf109G-14
782000 to 782280 - Bf109G-14/AS unknown number Bf109G-14
782281 to 782430 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
782750 to 783999 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept-Oct'44
784001 to 784200 - Bf109G-14 from Sept'44
784730 to 784999 - majority Bf109G-14 finished Sept'44
785000 to 785145 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785146 to 785170 - Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785175 to 785200 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Nov'44
785600 to 785725 - majority Bf109G-14, Nov'44
785726 to 785999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Nov-Dec'44
786300 to 786540 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Jan'45
787445 to 787495 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Feb'45



Bodenplatte JG11 G-14 losses

Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785119
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785787
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785751
Bf 109G-14 WNr.784958
Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785770

 

[TheMustangRider]

Let us do not forget about those who went off to war and never came back.
Most WWII veterans humbly say that those who paid the ultimate price deserve to be called the real heroes of The Second World War.
Those pilots who are perhaps only remembered by their families and friends; that fought gallantly for their cause, achieved a kill, two or maybe none and sadly lost their lives under the guns of a more experienced pilot, anti-aircraft fire or a tragic accident.

 

[Kryten]

and boy were there plenty of accidents!

 

[kettbo]

Plenty wounded, many have disabilities for life....War Wounded, real hero stuff.

Lots of these wounded folks were around when I was a youngster. American Legion halls were full, war stories in every corner. Guys without an arm, a leg, etc etc.

Later in my life I saw many of the German wounded when I was stationed at the Spa town of Bad Kissingen. In Uniform, my last name on the tag with KETTLER (very German) would draw the attention, sometimes allow me to start a conversation with a WW2 vet. Most of the old timers were very glad that the US kept a strong presence in Germany.
One particular field training exercise as the 1980s drew to a close we had parked our M-3 Bradleys in a woodline, platoon coil with ramps facing inward. With small towns seldom more than a few km away, the locals out for a weekend stroll found us. One old gent walking with a cane passed down the trail between our vehicles. I noted he had more than a casual interest in our 'toys' and was more or less 'kicking the tires' so I approached the guy and we struck up a conversation. Then my German was tolerable. He asked a LOT of questions about the Bradleys and modern Armor. He was amazed by the optics and thermal viewer capabilities. Eventually I got the guy to confide in me that he had served with the SS Panzers. He said the American JABOS hit his unit one day, late 1944 in Northern Italy, why he has used a cane ever since.
I had a pal stationed in nearby Schweinfurt. I went down there, hung out....his barracks were right next to where the bearing factories of Sachs and Kugelfischer. We walked the streets, Keith had some interest in this...some ruins were bulldozed and covered with soil to make a park, lots of the old buildings are still standing. FYI, Bad Kissingen was the IP for at least one of the bombing missions to Schweinfurt.

But there are other wounds the vets have to live with. After my tour in Germany, I returned home to California to visit my parents. Down on the corner of my street was Lee, father of a friend of mine. I had not spoken to him in some years so we chatted for a bit. I knew from my friend that Lee was a B-24 Bombardier, sometimes navigator during the war but had never talked to Lee about his service. Lee asked where I had been stationed. I replied, Bad Kissingen near Schweinfurt. He replied, "Hell, I used to bomb Schweinfurt, Leipzig too!" Talk about fighters, the AAA, etc. Lee went on to tell me on one mission that their B-24s were attacked from the front by FWs, he said that mission he was Navigator and that the Bombadier just feet away from him was blown up by the 20mm hits, the bomber shot to hell, and that the plane barely made it to Switzerland and an emergency landing. Think about your emotions when you plane may not make it out of German air space and what used to be your pal is now a pool of goo next to you. That has got to leave mental scars.

When on my way back from Iraq late 2004, I thought about Lee. I experienced some near misses by mortar rounds and one very close call with an IED, piece of cake compared to Lee or others serving in the bombers.


Back to the topic of the thread....

Gotta go for the man with the sorties involving combat. If my numbers are right Hartmann had 1400+ sorties, over 800 times in action...wow. Granted, target-rich environment but the Soviets knew where Hartmann was operating and the VVS fighter pilots would not mind getting Ruples for life for gunning him down. Midwar to latewar, some pretty hot planes and pilots available. Not to mention AAA fire. Realizing that the opponent is not an easy mark and moving on to easier prey is a sign of experience. Living to fight another day is winning. Sharks and killer whales (orca) will seldom attack anything that can hurt it, think about it.

 

[renrich]

kettbo, very interesting and insightful post. Especially last paragraph. Many thanks.