If only ......

[michael rauls]

Great find, mikewint. The history lesson for the troops was certainly true ... no question.

michael rauls, believe what you choose by all means but the fact that a political party espousing the beliefs and strategies of the Nazis gained power and was able to harness and direct the absolute power of the German state .... that is the the alarm and the message. The obscenity of reality.

Hiroshima was known to be Christian city in Japan but that didn't change anything, did it?

When I said " good god please don't misunderstand me" in my reply to your post the " good god "was meant as an expression of how horrible a misunderstanding of what I was saying might imply i.e. some kind of sympathy for the Nazi regime and not as an expression of exasperation with you. My sincerest apologies if it sounded that way.
I try to choose my words carefully but sometimes I still manage to put my foot in my mouth.

 

[mikewint]

that even under such a dystopian brutal regime there was at least a small percentage of the population (I hope it was more than a small percentage but well never really know)that didn't buy into it

In his book The Nazi Party 1919-1945: A complete history, Dietrich Orlow wrote that membership in the National Socialist German Workers' Party was about 2 million in 1933, 5.4 million in 1939, and over 8 million by 1945. As for the numbers of Nazi Party members in other countries it is very difficult find their numbers but they did exist and in large numbers in some countries, although often under different names but having the same ideology. The German American Bund, which was the US version of the NSDAP, drew 25,000 people to a rally they held before America entered the war.

Georg Fertig is a professor of economic history at Halle University in Germany. Fertig recently collected historical data on Germany going back to 1834. It shows that in 1940, there were about 69.8 million Germans. That would mean party members represented about 9 percent of the total.

But party membership was for adults, not children. In 1939, Germany had about 52 million people over 15. In that light, formal Nazi party members represented about 12 percent of the relevant population. By 1940, Germany had annexed Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, so defining the German population base gets more difficult.

Party membership in and of itself does not make a "true" Nazi as people then as now join organizations for various reasons. Now we also have those that don't actually join but supported the Nazi agendas.

Another possible clue can be taken from the last totally free elections in Germany in 1932. The Nazi party beat out every other party, winning about 33 percent of the vote and allowed it to take control of the Reichstag which put Hitler on his path to running the country. While not an exact measure for German support of the Nazis, it captures some level of popular sympathy for their agenda. After 1933, Germany was a totalitarian state, and voting was either coerced or nonexistent.
The popularity of the Nazis peaked around 1940 thanks to the rapid German Blitzkrieg victories in Europe so that initial 33% vote most like increased significantly.

It is VERY important to note and note well that the German state under Hitler was a completely totalitarian regime that literally controlled ALL aspects of life in Germany. Starting with:

Organizations to control the populace
Schutzstaffel (SS) - Led by Heinrich Himmler, the SS was the most important and oversaw the others.

Gestapo - This was the Nazis' secret police force. Its job was to monitor the German population for signs of opposition or resistance to Nazi rule.

Sicherheitsdienst (SD) - This was the intelligence gathering agency of the SS.

The Legal system
Judges had to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler and were expected to act always in the interests of the Nazi state.
All lawyers had to join the Nazi Lawyers' Association, which meant they could be controlled.
The role of defense lawyers in criminal trials was weakened.
Standard punishments for crimes were abolished. Local prosecutors could decide what penalties to impose on those found guilty.

The Ministry of Enlightenment and Propaganda, headed by Dr Joseph Goebbels controlled:
The press. All newspapers were controlled by the government and could only print stories favourable to the Nazi regime.
Radio broadcasts. Radios were sold very cheaply so that most Germans could afford one. All radio output was controlled by Goebbels' ministry through the Reich Broadcasting Corporation.
Mass rallies. Large public displays of support for Nazism with the biggest one held each year in August at Nuremberg.
Sports events. Berlin hosted the Olympics of 1936, which the Nazis used as an opportunity to showcase the success of the regime and to demonstrate the superiority of the Aryan race.
Loudspeakers in public places also blared out Nazi propaganda.

Culture and the Arts
These were also strictly controlled so that only certain Art, Literature, Theater, Film, and Music were allowed, i.e., those that promoted and glorified the Nazi ideals

Employment and Labor
The German people had suffered terribly during both the First World War and the Depression and a huge part of the Nazis' appeal was that they promised to make Germany's economy strong again. Hitler aimed for full employment and by 1939 there was virtually no official unemployment in Germany. Despite the loss of many freedoms, life improved in Germany for many ordinary people who were prepared to conform and look the other way. Everybody had a job and a wage.

German Youth
Hitler quickly saw to it that German children were thoroughly indoctrinated into Nazi ideology. From the age of 10 boys and girls were encouraged to join the Nazis' youth organization, the Hitler Youth. The girls' wing was called the League of German Maidens. Membership from age 10 was made compulsory in 1936 and by 1939, 90 per cent of German boys and girls, aged 14 and over were members.

In addition in the public school system all teachers had to join the Nazi Teachers' Association, which vetted them for political and racial suitability.

Religion
There were approximately 45 million Protestants and 22 million Catholic Christians in Germany in 1933. Hitler saw Christianity as a threat and a potential source of opposition to Nazism. As a result, a state Reich Church under the leadership of the Nazi Bishop Ludwig Müller was established to unify the different branches of Protestantism. This enabled the Nazis to use a group called the 'German Christians' within the Reich Church to promote Nazi ideas. The Reich Church attempted to ban the use of the Old Testament in religious services as it was considered a 'Jewish book'. Eight hundred Pastors of the Confessional Church, a non-conforming Protestant group, were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

As for the Catholics, in 1933 Hitler agreed a Concordat with the Pope, which said that he would not interfere in the running of the Catholic Church if it stayed out of political matters. Hitler didn't keep his side of the bargain, however, as the Nazis attempted to infiltrate the Church and spread their propaganda. Catholic schools and youth organizations were suppressed, with German children being educated in state schools and taught a Nazi curriculum, as well as being expected to join the various branches of the Hitler Youth. Catholic newspapers were banned and four hundred Catholic priests were sent to the Dachau concentration camp.

 

[michael rauls]

In his book The Nazi Party 1919-1945: A complete history, Dietrich Orlow wrote that membership in the National Socialist German Workers' Party was about 2 million in 1933, 5.4 million in 1939, and over 8 million by 1945. As for the numbers of Nazi Party members in other countries it is very difficult find their numbers but they did exist and in large numbers in some countries, although often under different names but having the same ideology. The German American Bund, which was the US version of the NSDAP, drew 25,000 people to a rally they held before America entered the war.

Georg Fertig is a professor of economic history at Halle University in Germany. Fertig recently collected historical data on Germany going back to 1834. It shows that in 1940, there were about 69.8 million Germans. That would mean party members represented about 9 percent of the total.

But party membership was for adults, not children. In 1939, Germany had about 52 million people over 15. In that light, formal Nazi party members represented about 12 percent of the relevant population. By 1940, Germany had annexed Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, so defining the German population base gets more difficult.

Party membership in and of itself does not make a "true" Nazi as people then as now join organizations for various reasons. Now we also have those that don't actually join but supported the Nazi agendas.

Another possible clue can be taken from the last totally free elections in Germany in 1932. The Nazi party beat out every other party, winning about 33 percent of the vote and allowed it to take control of the Reichstag which put Hitler on his path to running the country. While not an exact measure for German support of the Nazis, it captures some level of popular sympathy for their agenda. After 1933, Germany was a totalitarian state, and voting was either coerced or nonexistent.
The popularity of the Nazis peaked around 1940 thanks to the rapid German Blitzkrieg victories in Europe so that initial 33% vote most like increased significantly.

It is VERY important to note and note well that the German state under Hitler was a completely totalitarian regime that literally controlled ALL aspects of life in Germany. Starting with:

Organizations to control the populace
Schutzstaffel (SS) - Led by Heinrich Himmler, the SS was the most important and oversaw the others.

Gestapo - This was the Nazis' secret police force. Its job was to monitor the German population for signs of opposition or resistance to Nazi rule.

Sicherheitsdienst (SD) - This was the intelligence gathering agency of the SS.

The Legal system
Judges had to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler and were expected to act always in the interests of the Nazi state.
All lawyers had to join the Nazi Lawyers' Association, which meant they could be controlled.
The role of defense lawyers in criminal trials was weakened.
Standard punishments for crimes were abolished. Local prosecutors could decide what penalties to impose on those found guilty.

The Ministry of Enlightenment and Propaganda, headed by Dr Joseph Goebbels controlled:
The press. All newspapers were controlled by the government and could only print stories favourable to the Nazi regime.
Radio broadcasts. Radios were sold very cheaply so that most Germans could afford one. All radio output was controlled by Goebbels' ministry through the Reich Broadcasting Corporation.
Mass rallies. Large public displays of support for Nazism with the biggest one held each year in August at Nuremberg.
Sports events. Berlin hosted the Olympics of 1936, which the Nazis used as an opportunity to showcase the success of the regime and to demonstrate the superiority of the Aryan race.
Loudspeakers in public places also blared out Nazi propaganda.

Culture and the Arts
These were also strictly controlled so that only certain Art, Literature, Theater, Film, and Music were allowed, i.e., those that promoted and glorified the Nazi ideals

Employment and Labor
The German people had suffered terribly during both the First World War and the Depression and a huge part of the Nazis' appeal was that they promised to make Germany's economy strong again. Hitler aimed for full employment and by 1939 there was virtually no official unemployment in Germany. Despite the loss of many freedoms, life improved in Germany for many ordinary people who were prepared to conform and look the other way. Everybody had a job and a wage.

German Youth
Hitler quickly saw to it that German children were thoroughly indoctrinated into Nazi ideology. From the age of 10 boys and girls were encouraged to join the Nazis' youth organization, the Hitler Youth. The girls' wing was called the League of German Maidens. Membership from age 10 was made compulsory in 1936 and by 1939, 90 per cent of German boys and girls, aged 14 and over were members.

In addition in the public school system all teachers had to join the Nazi Teachers' Association, which vetted them for political and racial suitability.

Religion
There were approximately 45 million Protestants and 22 million Catholic Christians in Germany in 1933. Hitler saw Christianity as a threat and a potential source of opposition to Nazism. As a result, a state Reich Church under the leadership of the Nazi Bishop Ludwig Müller was established to unify the different branches of Protestantism. This enabled the Nazis to use a group called the 'German Christians' within the Reich Church to promote Nazi ideas. The Reich Church attempted to ban the use of the Old Testament in religious services as it was considered a 'Jewish book'. Eight hundred Pastors of the Confessional Church, a non-conforming Protestant group, were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

As for the Catholics, in 1933 Hitler agreed a Concordat with the Pope, which said that he would not interfere in the running of the Catholic Church if it stayed out of political matters. Hitler didn't keep his side of the bargain, however, as the Nazis attempted to infiltrate the Church and spread their propaganda. Catholic schools and youth organizations were suppressed, with German children being educated in state schools and taught a Nazi curriculum, as well as being expected to join the various branches of the Hitler Youth. Catholic newspapers were banned and four hundred Catholic priests were sent to the Dachau concentration camp.

I wonder if the reason many Germans chose to look the other way was the inability to really affect change. How many Germans would have chosen to risk there lives to affect change the way Stauphenberg , Rhomel, and Shindler did given the opportunity to do so. I don't know the answer. Could have been 1% or 50% there's no way to know. Perhaps I am naive and to much of an optimist about human nature but I certainly hope it was closer to the latter.

 

[michaelmaltby]

dehumanizing 'the others' that you find yourself in conflict with is an embedded mindset, feature, of tribalism ... sports teams 'trash talk' is a pale but undoubtedly legacy behavior.

The modern nation state embraces so many 'tribes' that propaganda to villainize 'the others' becomes more outrageous and preposterous.

How Germans could ignore the reality of their personal experience and accept the national characterization of the Jews is beyond me. 1,000s of Jewish men had served with distinction during WW1 ... and Jewish brains were leaders in such essential fields as chemistry and engineering .... a Jewish chemist gave the Germans poison gas. The leading doctors and dentists were all Jewish .... but all considered themseves Germans.

 

[michaelmaltby]

mikewent, it would be interesting to contrast Nazi membership with Communist support, circa 1930, because German was in a 'religous war' between left and right that had commenced in 1918.
Germans had historical reason to fear religious war .... the Protestant Reformation of Mr. Luther had unleashed untold horrors and disaster on the Germanic States, as they then were.

 

[michael rauls]

dehumanizing 'the others' that you find yourself in conflict with is an embedded mindset, feature, of tribalism ... sports teams 'trash talk' is a pale but undoubtedly legacy behavior.

The modern nation state embraces so many 'tribes' that propaganda to villainize 'the others' becomes more outrageous and preposterous.

How Germans could ignore the reality of their personal experience and accept the national characterization of the Jews is beyond me. 1,000s of Jewish men had served with distinction during WW1 ... and Jewish brains were leaders in such essential fields as chemistry and engineering .... a Jewish chemist gave the Germans poison gas. The leading doctors and dentists were all Jewish .... but all considered themseves Germans.

Verry well said. Especially putting the dehumanization in the context of tribalism and relating the tribe to the modern nation state. I think if more people were consciously aware of this dynamic it would be alot harder for bad " leaders" to manipulate the masses for evil purposes.
If only it were a majority and not a minority that would choose to follow there conscience and not there biological tribal programming in these situations how much better a place the world would be....................If only.

 

[GrauGeist]

Jews had served in the Germanic militaries (Prussia, Bavaria, Hamburg, Saxony, et al) for many years, right up to and through WWI, often times with distinction.
For example, Leutnant Frankle of the Imperial German Air Service was an Ace with 20 victories before his death in combat (April 1917) having awards that included the Iron Cross and Blue Max.
There was also VzFw Bechardt, highly decorated with a total of 17 aerial victories, surviving both WWI and the Nazis. Interestingly enough, he survived the Nazis because of his friendship with Goering, who interceeded on his behalf and Beckhardt went to Portugal.
Another Ace, Ostv Nathanael, who had 15 victories also was highly decorated, including the Order of Hohenzollern. Unfortunaly, he was also KIA in April 1917.

 

[Greg Boeser]

mikewent, it would be interesting to contrast Nazi membership with Communist support, circa 1930, because German was in a 'religous war' between left and right that had commenced in 1918.
Germans had historical reason to fear religious war .... the Protestant Reformation of Mr. Luther had unleashed untold horrors and disaster on the Germanic States, as they then were.

The problem here is that both the Nazis and the communists are leftist. Both spring from the same root of totalitarianism.
"Right" would be the traditional monarchist, believing and promoting the traditions of western civilization, which had fallen out of favor in the industrialized nations as "outdated". Progressivism then, as now, demands that outdated beliefs, morals and laws be done away with to clear the way for a utopian future that cannot be achieved with these impediments.
One could trace this all the way back to the Protestant revolution and the Enlightenment.

 

[michael rauls]

The problem here is that both the Nazis and the communists are leftist. Both spring from the same root of totalitarianism.
"Right" would be the traditional monarchist, believing and promoting the traditions of western civilization, which had fallen out of favor in the industrialized nations as "outdated". Progressivism then, as now, demands that outdated beliefs, morals and laws be done away with to clear the way for a utopian future that cannot be achieved with these impediments.
One could trace this all the way back to the Protestant revolution and the Enlightenment.

Yes I've always found it curious how most people view national socialism( the nazi party) and communism as being on oposite ends of the political spectrum. They look to be very much at the same end of the spectrum, and historically with much the same results, to me.

 

[GrauGeist]

The National Socialists are actually far-right, as nationalism runs at the opposite end of the spectrum from far-left socialist/Marxist ideals.

In the 1920's and 1930's Germany, there was a considerable amount of turmoil between the parties.
From far-left to far-right, the major parties were: the Communist Party of Germany (KPD), the Social Democrat Party (SDP), the Centre Party (DZP or Zentrum), German National People's Party (DNVP) and the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP).

However, these were not the only parties - there were ober 37 parties, which gives a good idea of the fractured public at the time.

 

[michael rauls]

The National Socialists are actually far-right, as nationalism runs at the opposite end of the spectrum from far-left socialist/Marxist ideals.

In the 1920's and 1930's Germany, there was a considerable amount of turmoil between the parties.
From far-left to far-right, the major parties were: the Communist Party of Germany (KPD), the Social Democrat Party (SDP), the Centre Party (DZP or Zentrum), German National People's Party (DNVP) and the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP).

However, these were not the only parties - there were ober 37 parties, which gives a good idea of the fractured public at the time.

I figured I might get some disagreement with that statement but hey that's ok.
I think alot of how one sees this depends on how one draws a political spectrum.
One can draw a spectrum between nationalism and globalism in a linear fashion or as many do a circular spectrum
hence the saying"if you go far enough left or far enough right you end up in the same place".
My problem with these two approaches is they both would need an offshoot for libertarianism( or its extreme which would be anarchy) so they are not spectrums at all. Imho.
To me the spectrum that makes the most sense is between anarchy at one extreme and totalitarianism, whether it be what we have traditionally considered left or right, at the other end.
To me the national socialism in Germany and Soviet communism were on the same end of the political spectrum because they both exhibited complete government control, totalitarianism, and expansionism.
Not saying my vision of political spectrum is proper and all others are wrong. It is however, the one that makes the most sense to me.
(Not sure if that last sentence is an endorsement or not)


.

 

[GrauGeist]

It is true that both Communism and National Socialism are totilitarian ideologies, however, they are violently opposed.

In Communism, the people and all thier belongings, products and such, belong to and are controlled by, the "state".
With the National Socialists, the people are free to buy and sell, own property and so on, as long as it is approved by the "state".

Both Communism and National Socialism used scapegoats, mainly the Jews and Gypsies.

In Communism, intellectuals, educators and artists were purged, while in National Socialism, intellectuals, educators and artists were part of their ideology.

 

[Greg Boeser]

It is true that both Communism and National Socialism are totilitarian ideologies, however, they are violently opposed.

In Communism, the people and all thier belongings, products and such, belong to and are controlled by, the "state".
With the National Socialists, the people are free to buy and sell, own property and so on, as long as it is approved by the "state".

Both Communism and National Socialism used scapegoats, mainly the Jews and Gypsies.

In Communism, intellectuals, educators and artists were purged, while in National Socialism, intellectuals, educators and artists were part of their ideology.

I think that under both regimes intellectuals, educators and artists who furthered the goals of the Party were groomed, while those that did not were ruthlessly exterminated, if they were unable to flee. The Nazis did plenty of expropriating property of those who might challenge their authority.

 

[michael rauls]

It is true that both Communism and National Socialism are totilitarian ideologies, however, they are violently opposed.

In Communism, the people and all thier belongings, products and such, belong to and are controlled by, the "state".
With the National Socialists, the people are free to buy and sell, own property and so on, as long as it is approved by the "state".

Both Communism and National Socialism used scapegoats, mainly the Jews and Gypsies.

In Communism, intellectuals, educators and artists were purged, while in National Socialism, intellectuals, educators and artists were part of their ideology.

Verry true that there are differences ( no two political systems will be identical even if adjacent)and that they violently opposed each other but in my mind they had much more in common than differentiated them. That is total government control over the population, forced loyalty to an ideology, and expansionism.
Total government control of the population always seems to end up ugly.
As the old saying goes" power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"
This is why I prefer to draw the spectrum the way i do. If it is drawn in the traditional fashion with fascism on the far right and communism on the far left then there is a whole range of possibilities that are not included.

 

[ODonovan]

As far as Hiroshima, alot more people, including alot more Japanese, would have died if we had invaded the mainland instead so while horrible as all war is it was probably the best course of action available.
That seems to be the consensus of the historians I have read anyway.

How many people think (as I do) the Japanese would have thumbed their collective noses at the US and our atomic bombs, had it not been for the Soviet invasion of Manchuria? Dying in a nuclear firestorm wouldn't be seen as anything different than any of the other ways the Japanese people died for their Emperor. They had already planned for every last man, woman, and child to die in defense of Japan, if necessary. However, having seen what happened to the citizens of Germany, when the Russians rolled over them on the way to Berlin, I doubt the Japanese leadership believed many of their people would die honorable deaths at the hands of the Russians. They had also lost the ability to call for Russian mediation, to set conditions for any surrender. They were screwed and they knew it.




-Irish

 

[michael rauls]

How many people think (as I do) the Japanese would have thumbed their collective noses at the US and our atomic bombs, had it not been for the Soviet invasion of Manchuria? Dying in a nuclear firestorm wouldn't be seen as anything different than any of the other ways the Japanese people died for their Emperor. They had already planned for every last man, woman, and child to die in defense of Japan, if necessary. However, having seen what happened to the citizens of Germany, when the Russians rolled over them on the way to Berlin, I doubt the Japanese leadership believed many of their people would die honorable deaths at the hands of the Russians. They had also lost the ability to call for Russian mediation, to set conditions for any surrender. They were screwed and they knew it.




-Irish

For sure the Russians weighed on there discision to surrender. Would they have not surrendered but for the Russians in spite of the bombings? Not sure anyone can know for sure at this point. One things for sure. Having the Russians breathing down there necks had to clarify there discision making process at the very least.
One thing that makes me think it was more the bombings than the Russians although im sure they both played a part in the discision is the Russians lack of amphibious capability. Pretty tough to invade an island without it.

 

[GrauGeist]

Keep in mind that Japan was being bombed continously and didn't waver in their determination.
Not after the devestating Tokyo fire storm and not after Hiroshima, either.

If you look at the invasion maps planned for the assault on the home islands (Operation Downfall), the Allies were planned on hitting the southern and south-eastern part of the home islands and the Japanese had correctly estimated the Allied landing zones and put in place considerable troops to counter this.
Now since Russia was not involved, Japan didn't bother to reinforce her western or north-western shores, instead counting on being able to shuttle their considerable manpower still occupying vast areas of the CBI, from Manchuria to French Indo-China.

Once Russia got involved, Japan realized that their ass was literally dangling in the wind and had no way to counter this new development...

Map of Operation Downfall:

 

[Ivan1GFP]

How many people think (as I do) the Japanese would have thumbed their collective noses at the US and our atomic bombs, had it not been for the Soviet invasion of Manchuria? Dying in a nuclear firestorm wouldn't be seen as anything different than any of the other ways the Japanese people died for their Emperor. They had already planned for every last man, woman, and child to die in defense of Japan, if necessary. However, having seen what happened to the citizens of Germany, when the Russians rolled over them on the way to Berlin, I doubt the Japanese leadership believed many of their people would die honorable deaths at the hands of the Russians. They had also lost the ability to call for Russian mediation, to set conditions for any surrender. They were screwed and they knew it.

I believe that the Japanese would have surrendered even without Soviet involvement.
The reason why is because Japan was in a pretty sorry state by 1945.
The capability to wage war still existed because weapons had been stockpiled for years and the troops were still being fed, but the rest of Japan was starving to death. Japan is quite poor in resources and depends on imports which were being stopped by the naval blockade. Those aircraft that had been stockpiled for repelling an invasion were most likely supplied enough for just one mission.
Even the air forces defending Japan against aerial bombardment were about finished. The aeroplanes and pilots still survived, but as stated in "Genda's Blade", they only had enough fuel to fly a couple more missions.

If the air war against Japan had continued, it would have just gotten more and more one-sided as the rest of the population died off for lack of food and medical care. The Atomic Bombs were a needed status change to force an immediate change in plans.

- Ivan.

 

[swampyankee]

Has anyone noticed the commonalities between the troops who committed the worst atrocities?

All were forces of dictatorships which had, to a great extent, replace the rule of law by the rule of either autocrats or oligarchs. It was simply that moral judgements were not a privilege to be exercised by the governed.

 

[Shinpachi]

An IJA General said to Emeror "Surrender to Americans will be sure better than to Russians".
Kishi told his grandson Abe "Japan must not stand alone if you may become a leader in the future".
See Abe met Putin more than 20 times since he became PM.

So this is Far-east.