If the Rare Bear became a ww2 fighter.

GregP said:

Because that's the way it was listed in all my history books in high school and college. I know it was the CSS Virginia in Condederate service, but I have read maybe 20 books that listed it as the Merrimac. Naturally, these books are all older ... I graduated from high school in 1968 and you probably have never read the same books.

In the end, I recognize either name and don't really give a hoot which one it is called ... I recognize them both ... the events are the same either way, as are the dispositions of said ships. And I lived in Phoenix during the Falklands war and it was reported as the USS Phoenix there in the papers AND the news, though the name General Belgrano waws also stated at the end of the telecast. So I remember BOTH names equally well.

Again, this isn't related to flying, so let's drop it, OK?

If not, I decline to continue in here per forum protocol. The location of the Monitor is: Coordinates: 35°0′6″N 75°24′23″W. The CSS Virginia resides on the bottom of the James River.

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cimmex said:

variable nozzle, Riedel- Starter, to name only two things the J31 J33 did not have…

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swampyankee said:

and even hand cranks.

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fastmongrel said:

Hand cranking a turbine must take some effort or some very high gearing.

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fastmongrel said:

Hand cranking a turbine must take some effort or some very high gearing.

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drgondog said:

Quote Originally Posted by BiffF15 View Post

Assumptions: Me-262 has a higher "rate" of turn with a larger "turn circle" than a Mustang.

Biff - this assumption isn't true. The Me 262 has a higher Velocity than the Mustang in a sustained turn, say at 4G, but the slower Mustang has so much smaller turn Radius that it will complete a 360 turn much faster, and therefore keep the 262 in the pipper at will. Also the 51 pilots were 100% using Berger type G suits.

Drgndog - You have misunderstood how this type of fight is done. When you find yourself stagnated or in lag with excess energy you then transition by lessening the G's and gradually accelerating outside the defenders turn circle (your circle "grows"). You don't stay at his speed but accelerate above it, sometimes well above it. You then "run" around your larger circle (greater degrees per second) until you reach a point where you cash in your speed to tighten your turn and bring your nose to bear and employ.

There are two types of turns (for the most part) when talking dogfighting (Basic Fighter Maneuvers or BFM in todays speak). They are energy sustaining or depleting (max performance usually up against airframe / pilot limits). The depleting is what you do to give an offender / attacker the most problem you can or get into a position to employ, and the sustained turn is when you are using patience over time to defeat your opponent.

Agreed - but because the G limits on the pilot are more likely to dictate the ability to sustain the turn, the Mustang (or Spit or Tempest or Jug) pilot is able to turn at a higher G than the 262 pilot. Someone can step in and tell me that the 262 pilots wore G suits and that would kill my argument here.

The "rate" fight as it's known requires someone in good shape, or with very hard arteries. However, it's not undoable as the Blue Angels do their routine without a G-suit.

The way to visualize this is from the God's eye view of two circles, one 20% bigger than the other. The Me-262 would be on the larger, the Mustang on the smaller. When sustaining you are holding a fairly constant airspeed while descending (most likely). If the Me262 is at it's optimum sustained airspeed would go around it's larger circle faster than the Mustang at it's optimum sustained speed.

If you put both aircraft in sustained 3G turn at SL (one with G suit and one without), then at 3G and a W/L of 60 at GW =14000, and CLmax of 1.6 (w/o compressor stall), the Me 262 Velocity around the circle is about 210mph or 308fps. The Mustang (slowest rate of turn compared to Spit and Tempest) at 3G with a WL of 41 at GW=9600 and a CLmax of 1.4 is moving at 273fps = 186mph and get around the 771 ft radius circle in 13% LESS time than the 262 around its 982 ft radius circle..

Again both aircraft are not doing the same thing. The defender is usually much slower than the offender, and while they are fighting each other, the offender is fighting via rate while the defender is fighting via radius.

At 6.6G the Me 262 V= 297mph and the P-51 is at 263mph but the turn Rate for the same diameter circles as at 3G is about 13%less for the 262 than for the P-51 at 6.6G - but the P-51 has a.) reached max Limit load for 9600 pounds GW whereas the 262 still has some room - if the pilot and a/c can handle it... The 51 will rapidly lose energy and airspeed faster than the 262. Somewhwere between 4g and 7g a 262 pilot w/o G suit will have a problem but the 51 will run out of sustained energy in that range. .

There are both plus's and minus's to this. We use both to this day. The way it's used from the Me-262 perspective would be to go to lag on a Mustang while holding at optimum airspeed and wait until the Mustang had depleted it's hard turn portion, transitioned to it's sustained airspeed, then misalign turn circles (make the God's eye view look like two circles from the Olympics icon) which allows you to come back inside the smaller turn circle and employ.

The 51's ability to sustain the turn at a constant airspeed and altitude and smaller radius is limited to about 180-200 mph even though its Corner Velocity is about 273-276mph at 6.6G. I honestly don't know what the 262 capability is given the issues with the engines and AoA sustenance in a higher G turn. With engines of today at 2000 pounds each thrust is should be able to get up to 4G perhaps with no compressor stall issues of the Jumo and it will match the turn RATE of the 51 at 3G while traveling faster along the 984x2x3.14ft diameter circle. Any sustained turn above 4G will be advantage Me 262 while the 51 is trucking at 3G

The only time these fights are done "level" are when terra firma gets in the way. Otherwise they are done in a decent that are a trade off between holding energy and altitude lost. To much energy and your circle "grows" allowing the offender to get his nose on. Too much altitude allows your turn circle to "grow" and again, the offender to bring his nose in. I doubt a Me262 would do too much vertical maneuvering down due to being so close to it's critical mach at combat speeds. Maneuvering up, or zooming, would be it's best maneuver as long as there weren't any Allied fighters waiting or watching from above.

If I were to be employing a Me262, after having flown Me-109s or Fw-190s I would do hit and run, exactly as stated above. That would be only if I had the perfect bounce (tap in todays speak), and then would move on. As for bouncing bombers I would find the speed which allowed me to shoot effectively AND minimized my time in .50 cal hell zone. My motors wouldn't allow me to do big throttle swings due to fear of flameout or engine damage.

The ones that lived past May 1945 mostly chose this approach.

Another advantage the Me-262 would have is the ability to leave (as long as he didn't anchor or start the fight too slow). While it's dive Mach is similar to the previously mentioned piston fighters, it also could be attained at a much shallower angle than the piston guys. You just have to make the decision to leave BEFORE it's too late.

Agreed - and it did have perhaps .02-.04M advantage over the 51/47 but perhaps zero edge vs Spit.

It's real advantage would be the ability to get to it's max mach in a shallow dive. This would allow a separation (opening of the fight outside the offenders max weapons range) followed by a zoom to reposition for the next attack.

It is my opinion that if you were in a Me262 and anchored with a piston fighter you would much more often than not lose.

Another case of don't get target fixated - and become a target of the unseen foe. Nothing a 262 does to stay in a maneuvering fight against a piston engine fighter in 1945 can be a good thing. I would suspect that using speed advantage to go vertical is the best of all options.

Keep your pumpkin on a swivel! It's hard to defeat what you don't have SA on (situational awareness).

I flew F15s for many years, and fought F16s many, many times. They turn better than I did/do which required me to adjust the way I fought in order to be successful. Its a matter of knowing his and your strengths weakness's and bringing your strengths to bear on his weakness, all the while staying away from his strengths. Also realize that the Eagle and Viper don't have AOA restrictions for airflow into the engines which I suspect that the Me262 did. The Eagle has a vari ramp which controls the airflow and also provide lift.

Cheers,
Biff.

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breadbasketbomb said:

Can someone tell me why the Super Corsair didn't go much faster? Despite having a 3,000 horsepower engine?

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breadbasketbomb said:

Can someone tell me why the Super Corsair didn't go much faster? Despite having a 3,000 horsepower engine?

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breadbasketbomb said:

Can someone tell me why the Super Corsair didn't go much faster? Despite having a 3,000 horsepower engine?

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GregP said:

What most people don't know is the super Corsair was not particularly heavy. It had a relatively normal weight with the extra HP.

It was intended to fight Kamakazes.

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