If you had an airforce...
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kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Didn't Heinkel originally begin development of the He 277 against the RLM's wishes? (they being so adamant on development of the He 177)
Soren
Quote: "As for the He-277, again no project, in full service in WW2 where 15 flew for the LW."
Source for that, please. According to Griehl's and Dressel's Heinkel He 177, 277 and 277 in April 44 Heinkel was instructed by the RLM to suspend all work on the He 277. All components and parts in the process of manufacture were to be scrapped.
And the units which allegly used He 277s?
Juha
Quote: "As for the He-277, again no project, in full service in WW2 where 15 flew for the LW."
Source for that, please. According to Griehl's and Dressel's Heinkel He 177, 277 and 277 in April 44 Heinkel was instructed by the RLM to suspend all work on the He 277. All components and parts in the process of manufacture were to be scrapped.
And the units which allegly used He 277s?
Juha
Soren
So You don't have a reliable source?
Now according to above mentioned book Heinkel didn't get ready a single He 277s IIRC and only 3 prototypes of He 177B-5s, 4th, a production proto, seemed to have been destroyed during USAAF bombing before it was completed. He 177B-5 (4 separate engines) production was first delayed because Arado got orders to concentrate first on Ar 234 and then Heinkel got orders to scrap He 177B-5 program and put all resources to he 162.
French got ready at least one He 274.
Juha
So You don't have a reliable source?
Now according to above mentioned book Heinkel didn't get ready a single He 277s IIRC and only 3 prototypes of He 177B-5s, 4th, a production proto, seemed to have been destroyed during USAAF bombing before it was completed. He 177B-5 (4 separate engines) production was first delayed because Arado got orders to concentrate first on Ar 234 and then Heinkel got orders to scrap He 177B-5 program and put all resources to he 162.
French got ready at least one He 274.
Juha
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I have no sources to support this, and a few that counter.
I already provided pictures Davparlr, they were built and flew for the LW during WW2.
15 He-277's were finished before the project was put down and efforts were to be directed at fighter production. Juha may believe what he wants to but the below isn't a prototype and it wasn't partially finished:
15 He-277's were finished before the project was put down and efforts were to be directed at fighter production. Juha may believe what he wants to but the below isn't a prototype and it wasn't partially finished:
Ofcourse there was also the He-274 which was even faster at 580 km/h and had a slightly lower ceiling of 14,300m:
Now this a/c only got to the prototype stage, and was pretty much finished when the project was cancelled along with the production of He-277's.
Now this a/c only got to the prototype stage, and was pretty much finished when the project was cancelled along with the production of He-277's.
Soren
production He 177 B-5 / 277 B-5 were to have twin fin, see the drawing at Luftarchiv.de. Photos on the site are of 177 V101 or V103 early on which still had unmodified He 177A-5 fuselages and so single fin.
And where you got the info on 15 in full service? You can of course believe what you want but as I have wrote a fairly new German book which specialized on He 177, 277 and 274 doesn't know anything on series production He 177B-5s/277 B-5s.
Nice that you posted photos on the both Ju 390 protos which were completed.
BTW French completed the both He 274 protos, V1 flew first time Dec 1945 and V2 Dec 1947.
Juha
production He 177 B-5 / 277 B-5 were to have twin fin, see the drawing at Luftarchiv.de. Photos on the site are of 177 V101 or V103 early on which still had unmodified He 177A-5 fuselages and so single fin.
And where you got the info on 15 in full service? You can of course believe what you want but as I have wrote a fairly new German book which specialized on He 177, 277 and 274 doesn't know anything on series production He 177B-5s/277 B-5s.
Nice that you posted photos on the both Ju 390 protos which were completed.
BTW French completed the both He 274 protos, V1 flew first time Dec 1945 and V2 Dec 1947.
Juha
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Here's a quick quote from WIKIPEDIA:
There were 15 He 277/177B's that flew in all, including prototypes and any pre-production a/c, 8 production 277's were completed prior to the cancellation of all bomber programs to focus resourses on the Emergency fighter program.
(unfinished components on the production line may have been scrapped, but the completed bombers were not)
There were 15 He 277/177B's that flew in all, including prototypes and any pre-production a/c, 8 production 277's were completed prior to the cancellation of all bomber programs to focus resourses on the Emergency fighter program.
(unfinished components on the production line may have been scrapped, but the completed bombers were not)
Kool Kitty
Yes and see the sources, the claim that there were 8 production 277s is from Green, which isn't very reliable on late war types. I know because I read Green's A/c of 3rd Reich and Nowarra's thick book on German a/c around 1970.
Have you raliable source on the 277 production? And use in units? Griel and Dressel had clearly went through much archieval material for their book but the text isn't always absolutely clear. Also much of 3rd reich material was destroyed so I cannot claim that their book is error free.
Juha
Yes and see the sources, the claim that there were 8 production 277s is from Green, which isn't very reliable on late war types. I know because I read Green's A/c of 3rd Reich and Nowarra's thick book on German a/c around 1970.
Have you raliable source on the 277 production? And use in units? Griel and Dressel had clearly went through much archieval material for their book but the text isn't always absolutely clear. Also much of 3rd reich material was destroyed so I cannot claim that their book is error free.
Juha
Hello again, Kool Kitty
checked from Wood's and Gunston's Hitler's Luftwaffe, on page 193 there is nothing on He 277 B-5 or other He 277 production only 3 protos and several advanced proposed production versions. So it up to Green.
And even Green, in his Famous Bombers, 1975 edition p. 230 talk about 3 protos and 8 production a/c and of the latter " only two or three of these actually test flown." So max 6 test flown according to Green
According to Griel and Dressel, only 3 prototypes flew (V101-3) and V104 "A-5 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Pattern a/c for He 177B-5 series. Believed destroyed in an air raid before completion July 1944." (in page 226.)
Nowhere I have seen info on He 177 B-5 /He 277 B-5 service in combat unit. Or even a photo on He 177 B-5 /He 277 B-5 in its production form (Twin finned tail, a 4-gun tail turret and a chin turret).
Juha
checked from Wood's and Gunston's Hitler's Luftwaffe, on page 193 there is nothing on He 277 B-5 or other He 277 production only 3 protos and several advanced proposed production versions. So it up to Green.
And even Green, in his Famous Bombers, 1975 edition p. 230 talk about 3 protos and 8 production a/c and of the latter " only two or three of these actually test flown." So max 6 test flown according to Green
According to Griel and Dressel, only 3 prototypes flew (V101-3) and V104 "A-5 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Pattern a/c for He 177B-5 series. Believed destroyed in an air raid before completion July 1944." (in page 226.)
Nowhere I have seen info on He 177 B-5 /He 277 B-5 service in combat unit. Or even a photo on He 177 B-5 /He 277 B-5 in its production form (Twin finned tail, a 4-gun tail turret and a chin turret).
Juha
Lancaster630
Airman 1st Class
- 282
- Feb 26, 2007
Fighter: Hawker Hurricane
Reason: Can take a lot of punishment and quickly be adapted to diffrent theatres
Ground Attack: Hawker Tornado
Reason: Never went into production but from I have read the Rolls Royce Vulture "behaved itself" and I like it lol
Escort Fighter: FW190 D-9
Reason: I just feel sorry for anyone trying to get at the aircraft they are escorting
Naval Fighter: Chance Vought Corsair
Reason: Good solid aircraft, the abilitie to carry a lot of ordinance
Naval Bomber/Torpedo bomber: Fairey Swordfish
Reason: Same as the Hurricane can take a lot of punishment just a good faithful reliable plane
Light Bomber: Junkers 87 Stuka
Reason: pin point accuracy making its smaller bomb load more effective
Medium Bomber: Vickers Wellington
Reason: Good plane, reliable and can take one hell of a bashing
Heavy Bomber: Avro Lancaster B.I
Reason: Good bombload with a good future pedagrie to come after the war with the Shackleton and Lincoln
Strike Aircraft: De Haviland Mosquito B.IV
Reason: Fast, accurate with a bombload better than the B17's
Night Fighter: De Haviland Mosquito NF.II
Reason: Fast, deadly always present to cause problems to the enemy
Night Intruder: Hamker Huricane Mk.IIC with Bristol Beufighter
Reason: Hurri same as before, Beufighter had to have one somewhere lol
Photo Recon: Mosquito and Spitfire PR.XIX
Reason: Both aircraft are fast and well suited to these roles
Transport: Douglas C47 Dakota
Reason: Well proven aircraft for reliability and saftey
Glider Tug: Short Stirling
Reson: The type found a good niche here, and with the escort of FW190 D-9's would have no worries
Special Services: Westland Lysander
Reason: its more of a personal favorite
Trainers: Tiger Moth, Miles Master III and Avro Anson
Reason: Can take a lot of punishment and quickly be adapted to diffrent theatres
Ground Attack: Hawker Tornado
Reason: Never went into production but from I have read the Rolls Royce Vulture "behaved itself" and I like it lol
Escort Fighter: FW190 D-9
Reason: I just feel sorry for anyone trying to get at the aircraft they are escorting
Naval Fighter: Chance Vought Corsair
Reason: Good solid aircraft, the abilitie to carry a lot of ordinance
Naval Bomber/Torpedo bomber: Fairey Swordfish
Reason: Same as the Hurricane can take a lot of punishment just a good faithful reliable plane
Light Bomber: Junkers 87 Stuka
Reason: pin point accuracy making its smaller bomb load more effective
Medium Bomber: Vickers Wellington
Reason: Good plane, reliable and can take one hell of a bashing
Heavy Bomber: Avro Lancaster B.I
Reason: Good bombload with a good future pedagrie to come after the war with the Shackleton and Lincoln
Strike Aircraft: De Haviland Mosquito B.IV
Reason: Fast, accurate with a bombload better than the B17's
Night Fighter: De Haviland Mosquito NF.II
Reason: Fast, deadly always present to cause problems to the enemy
Night Intruder: Hamker Huricane Mk.IIC with Bristol Beufighter
Reason: Hurri same as before, Beufighter had to have one somewhere lol
Photo Recon: Mosquito and Spitfire PR.XIX
Reason: Both aircraft are fast and well suited to these roles
Transport: Douglas C47 Dakota
Reason: Well proven aircraft for reliability and saftey
Glider Tug: Short Stirling
Reson: The type found a good niche here, and with the escort of FW190 D-9's would have no worries
Special Services: Westland Lysander
Reason: its more of a personal favorite
Trainers: Tiger Moth, Miles Master III and Avro Anson
Wouldn't you want an aircraft with a bit more range for escort duty?
519mi is not very long...
Here's what I have:
Converted from an He 177A-3/R2 airframe, with four DB 603A engines, the first Heinkel He 277 prototype flew at Vienna-Schwechat in the closing months of 1943, followed by the second aircraft on 28 February 1944. Directional instability resulted in the fitting of a twin fin and rudder tail unit to the third prototype. Eight 1305kW DB 603A-powered He 277B-5/R2 production models were completed before the priority given to fighter production in July 1944 brought the programme to an end.
Converted from an He 177A-3/R2 airframe, with four DB 603A engines, the first Heinkel He 277 prototype flew at Vienna-Schwechat in the closing months of 1943, followed by the second aircraft on 28 February 1944. Directional instability resulted in the fitting of a twin fin and rudder tail unit to the third prototype. Eight 1305kW DB 603A-powered He 277B-5/R2 production models were completed before the priority given to fighter production in July 1944 brought the programme to an end.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Soren, What's your sourse?
That seems to match what Wikipedia has:
That seems to match what Wikipedia has:
It's from here:
Heinkel He 277 - bomber
Heinkel He 277 - bomber
So we have unsourced internet source which gives same info as Green in his old A/c of the 3rd Reich. And we know that in his a bit less old Famous Bombers Green qualifies that of the 8 production He 277 B-5s " only two or three of these actually test flown."
On the other hand we have newer book specialising on He 177, 277 and 274 whose German authors write in their introduction that they had used Bundesarchiv / Militärarchiv , Wehrbereichsbibliothek IV and looked through the records of the former Heinkel AG and who wrote that only 4 He 177 B-5s (277 B-5s) were made of which the last one was probably destroyed before it was fully completed during an USAAF bombing raid. And only photos we have seen are those of V 101 which was the first proto of 177 B-5 / 277 B-5 a/c.
And still no info on use in combat units.
Juha
BTW if you are interested in He 177/277 find a copy of Griel's and Dressel's book, the story of He 177B-5 protos and their air testing seems to have been a bit more complicating than the internet tells and V102 was the first to have twin fin, V 103 was to have that later, V101 got only small aux. fins on its tail plane a bit like Fairey Gannet
On the other hand we have newer book specialising on He 177, 277 and 274 whose German authors write in their introduction that they had used Bundesarchiv / Militärarchiv , Wehrbereichsbibliothek IV and looked through the records of the former Heinkel AG and who wrote that only 4 He 177 B-5s (277 B-5s) were made of which the last one was probably destroyed before it was fully completed during an USAAF bombing raid. And only photos we have seen are those of V 101 which was the first proto of 177 B-5 / 277 B-5 a/c.
And still no info on use in combat units.
Juha
BTW if you are interested in He 177/277 find a copy of Griel's and Dressel's book, the story of He 177B-5 protos and their air testing seems to have been a bit more complicating than the internet tells and V102 was the first to have twin fin, V 103 was to have that later, V101 got only small aux. fins on its tail plane a bit like Fairey Gannet
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