Luftwaffe Aircraft Camouflage and Markings
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barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
Any additional information about this type of paint scheme based off the photos would be appreciated.
That looks like a colourised photo to me. The emblem on the nose is for a reconnaissance unit, 2.Aufklr.Gr 123.
Such units usually used standard camouflaged aircraft and I'd be suspicious of that image. It needs some investigation. It might be it was stripped of paint for any number of reasons if it is genuine.
Cheers
Steve
Such units usually used standard camouflaged aircraft and I'd be suspicious of that image. It needs some investigation. It might be it was stripped of paint for any number of reasons if it is genuine.
Cheers
Steve
barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
The image is not a colourised photo. At least the first one it comes out of this book.
Junkers Ju 88 (Crowood Aviation): Amazon.co.uk: Ron Mackay: 9781861264312: Books
There is a number of colour photos in it. The second photo has clearly been played with compared to the first image it came from a Wiki link.
Aufkl.Gr.(F)123 Unit Emblems - LuftwaffeDataWiki
The squadron information I was aware of. I do have a black white photo of a Dornier I found on EBAY that seems to have the same finish?
Junkers Ju 88 (Crowood Aviation): Amazon.co.uk: Ron Mackay: 9781861264312: Books
There is a number of colour photos in it. The second photo has clearly been played with compared to the first image it came from a Wiki link.
Aufkl.Gr.(F)123 Unit Emblems - LuftwaffeDataWiki
The squadron information I was aware of. I do have a black white photo of a Dornier I found on EBAY that seems to have the same finish?
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I agree with Stone. The shot is a colourised one. However the silver finish can be true. I have seen a similar B&W picture with a Ju-88 like that. Possible it was the same kite.
Edition .... here you are. The images is from FalkeEins' FalkeEins - The Luftwaffe blog : Junkers Ju 88 Fernaufklärungsgruppe (long range recce) over the Med
Edition .... here you are. The images is from FalkeEins' FalkeEins - The Luftwaffe blog : Junkers Ju 88 Fernaufklärungsgruppe (long range recce) over the Med
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barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
Nice image.
I have found a third photo of the same aircraft this one seems not so enhanced for the lack of a better term.
It clearly is a two tone scheme I have identified the aircraft it is 4U+GK. I found another photo online that has the exact same items in the photo as the colour one.
Note the boxes behind the aircraft the three wires hanging down from the landing gear. I think proof positive the same plane.
Also there is a decal sheet of this aircraft.
Google-Ergebnis für http://www.modellversium.de/kit/bilder/5/0/7/8507-deckel.jpg
Authentic Decals - All categories - Junkers Ju-88D - Karaya
Also the question about the colour photo being colourised take a look at all three versions see if you can see what is odd about them.
See it?
There is a tan coloured engine panel in all three images. A strange thing to do with a colourised photo don't you think? The simple answer would be paint it all the same in photoshop. I believe this is a legit colour photo.
I am guessing the tan panel was a repair they took it from another aircraft.
Even the black white photo of 4U+GK hints at a possible colour variation on this panel.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Can't see a tan-colured panel, but I can see a removed panel, showing the inside of the cowling, and exhaust staining immediately below the exhaust stacks.
Overall, in all the images, even allowing for changes of contrast and colour saturation, they have the appearance of wartime Agfa colour film, so very possibly colour originals.
Overall, in all the images, even allowing for changes of contrast and colour saturation, they have the appearance of wartime Agfa colour film, so very possibly colour originals.
barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Ah, now I understand !
I don't think that's a different coloured panel, but rather the effect of the highlights in the photo, and is probably the same as the rest of the upper surface colour.
I don't think that's a different coloured panel, but rather the effect of the highlights in the photo, and is probably the same as the rest of the upper surface colour.
N4521U
Colonel
Help............ Again.
I've been looking all over this thread for Me262 markings, for Kg51.
The side consists of TK+C9. The tk & 9 are Black and very small, "C" is taller and white.
They happen to be the markings of the first Me262 shot down by an Aussie pilot,
Tony Gaze, 1945 flying a Mk XIV Spitfire RM797, DW*F, from 610 Sqn.
Markings as in this one, only the letter "C" rather than F
I've been looking all over this thread for Me262 markings, for Kg51.
The side consists of TK+C9. The tk & 9 are Black and very small, "C" is taller and white.
They happen to be the markings of the first Me262 shot down by an Aussie pilot,
Tony Gaze, 1945 flying a Mk XIV Spitfire RM797, DW*F, from 610 Sqn.
Markings as in this one, only the letter "C" rather than F
Crimea_River
Marshal
The numbers/letters don't sound right to me. The 9K code, as shown in your example and usually in small letters, depicts KG51. The larger letter would be the aircraft identifier and the colour would depend on the squadron. The final letter, also small, would identify the staffel, or squadron. Any chance you got the codes mixed up?
As for camouflage, this unit had all kinds of different schemes so it would be hard to pin down what this aircraft would have looked like if there are no pics.
EDIT: Did a bit more digging. The aircraft apparently shot down was an Me262A-2 WNr 500064 coded 9K+CL of I/KG51. Colour of C and camo still unknown.
As for camouflage, this unit had all kinds of different schemes so it would be hard to pin down what this aircraft would have looked like if there are no pics.
EDIT: Did a bit more digging. The aircraft apparently shot down was an Me262A-2 WNr 500064 coded 9K+CL of I/KG51. Colour of C and camo still unknown.
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N4521U
Colonel
Exactly as stated, not depicted in photo.
Do you know the size in 1:1 of the cross?
I have to find sheets of the other letters, number for 1/72nd.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Standard Me262 fuselage cross was 800mm.
Not sure what you mean by "exactly as stated". Gaze shot down the Me262 I identified on 14 Feb 1945. The call letters TK+CP are bogus.
Me-262 shoot down - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Not sure what you mean by "exactly as stated". Gaze shot down the Me262 I identified on 14 Feb 1945. The call letters TK+CP are bogus.
Me-262 shoot down - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
fubar57
General
N4521U
Colonel
So Andy, I stand corrected, got my codes a bit skewiff.
So we have This from 12O'Clock High
Hi,
the info I have from the Gen.Qtr.Meister is as follows:
14-02-45, I./KG 51, Location: Emmerich, Cause: Crash, Me 262 A-2, WNr. 500642, 9K+CL, Damage: 100%, Fw. Hofmann Rudolf, KIA.
And This from Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Tony's flight log;
F/L F.A.O. Gaze of 610 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 14 February, 1945:
"On 14/2/45 I was leading Wavey Black section of two aircraft on standing patrol over NIJMEGEN. At about 1630 hours I sighted an Arado 234 pulling up from attacking the CLEVE area. I dropped my tank and attempted to intercept but despite the fact that I cut the corner it pulled away easily at 7,000 ft. After this we continually chased Arados over this area. I fired at two without result. At about 1700 hours when it was apparent that the jets were diving down through the cloud which was from 9 - 11,000 ft. I climbed up through it, leaving Black 2 below, hoping to warn him when they dived. Then I did an orbit at 13,000 ft. to clear off the ice on the windscreen and sighted 3 M.E. 262's in Vic formation passing below me at cloud top level. I dived down behind them and closed in, crossing behind the formation and attacked the port aircraft which was lagging slightly. I could not see my sight properly as we were flying straight into the sun, but fired from dead astern, at a range of 350 yards, hitting it in the starboard jet with the second burst; at which the other 2 aircraft immediately dived into cloud. It pulled up slowly and turned to starboard and I fired obtaining more strikes on fuselage and jet which caught fire. The enemy rolled over on to its back and dived through cloud. I turned 180 and dived after it, calling on the R/T to warn my no.2; on breaking cloud I saw an aircraft hit the ground and explode about a mile ahead of me, at E.9859. I claim this M.E.262 destroyed. Black 2 also witnessed this explosion." *
I./KG 51, Me 262 A-2, WNr. 500064, 9K+CL, Fw. Hofmann Rudolf, KIA.
- taken from www.spitfireperformance.com (WWII Aircraft Performance)
So we have This from 12O'Clock High
Hi,
the info I have from the Gen.Qtr.Meister is as follows:
14-02-45, I./KG 51, Location: Emmerich, Cause: Crash, Me 262 A-2, WNr. 500642, 9K+CL, Damage: 100%, Fw. Hofmann Rudolf, KIA.
And This from Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Tony's flight log;
F/L F.A.O. Gaze of 610 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 14 February, 1945:
"On 14/2/45 I was leading Wavey Black section of two aircraft on standing patrol over NIJMEGEN. At about 1630 hours I sighted an Arado 234 pulling up from attacking the CLEVE area. I dropped my tank and attempted to intercept but despite the fact that I cut the corner it pulled away easily at 7,000 ft. After this we continually chased Arados over this area. I fired at two without result. At about 1700 hours when it was apparent that the jets were diving down through the cloud which was from 9 - 11,000 ft. I climbed up through it, leaving Black 2 below, hoping to warn him when they dived. Then I did an orbit at 13,000 ft. to clear off the ice on the windscreen and sighted 3 M.E. 262's in Vic formation passing below me at cloud top level. I dived down behind them and closed in, crossing behind the formation and attacked the port aircraft which was lagging slightly. I could not see my sight properly as we were flying straight into the sun, but fired from dead astern, at a range of 350 yards, hitting it in the starboard jet with the second burst; at which the other 2 aircraft immediately dived into cloud. It pulled up slowly and turned to starboard and I fired obtaining more strikes on fuselage and jet which caught fire. The enemy rolled over on to its back and dived through cloud. I turned 180 and dived after it, calling on the R/T to warn my no.2; on breaking cloud I saw an aircraft hit the ground and explode about a mile ahead of me, at E.9859. I claim this M.E.262 destroyed. Black 2 also witnessed this explosion." *
I./KG 51, Me 262 A-2, WNr. 500064, 9K+CL, Fw. Hofmann Rudolf, KIA.
- taken from www.spitfireperformance.com (WWII Aircraft Performance)
Crimea_River
Marshal
Yep. That, along with Geo's and the link I posted is where I got the info. Now, if we can look at the final letter, L, if the coding used was standard then this would indicate the aircraft came from the third staffel and, in theory, the large letter C would be yellow. So now you have the serial number, the coding, the probable style of lettering, but no info on the camo - yet.
N4521U
Colonel
You don't think the camo would be as in the illustration?
I would say the camo of the profile is a little bit overdone. According to all pics of the kite the lighter spots of the camo should be more diffuse and darker.
the pic source: ME-262 1/32 Trumpeter
the pic source: ME-262 1/32 Trumpeter
Crimea_River
Marshal
It could very well be but, based on what I have seen of these KG51 birds, the camo patterns varied quite a bit.
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Regarding the style of lettering.. it might be like the "B" of 1./KG51...
1./KG51 (9K+BH)
the pic source: FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: KG 51 Me 262 Blitzbomber and 'Red 9' 10./NJG 11
or
2./KG51 (9K+DK)
or
3(J)KG51 (9K+BL)
the pic source: Messerschmitt Me 262A-1a 2./Kdo Nowotny White 19+ Hesepe Oct 1944
or
possible 3./KG51 (5./KG51) (9K+KN)
the pic source: New Bf109K-4 pictures - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
1./KG51 (9K+BH)
the pic source: FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: KG 51 Me 262 Blitzbomber and 'Red 9' 10./NJG 11
or
2./KG51 (9K+DK)
or
3(J)KG51 (9K+BL)
the pic source: Messerschmitt Me 262A-1a 2./Kdo Nowotny White 19+ Hesepe Oct 1944
or
possible 3./KG51 (5./KG51) (9K+KN)
the pic source: New Bf109K-4 pictures - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
