LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Anonymous, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Very interesting ain't it?

    =S=

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  2. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    Luftwaffe kills overrated? Yes, they are. As in other countries (Britain at BoB for example) or in other services. Kind of propaganda if you ask me (worst have been for tank vs tank and bomber vs. fighter kills as I know). But still one point has to be added:
    Define "losses".
    Losses are defined not commonly but for each country in an own way. For BoB for example a downed spitfire doesn´t mean necessarly a loss as long as some parts of the plane can be recovered. This is even more important for Africa.
    Some US bombers, which have been forced to make emergancy landings behind russian lines in late 1944/1945 are missing in the losses, too.
    I do agree in this, claims doesn´t reflect real losses 1:1. From the soviet side I have a number of Luftwaffe losses, also: 101.283 planes (!)
    After a little digging, I found out that these numbers include all planes lost by enemy fire, accidents, bombings, trainings, testings and industrial misproductions. Plus it also includes damaged planes from 100% to 10 % and all planes beeing outdated and therefore scrapped or self destroyed. I expect that almost 95% of all Luftwaffe planes suffered minor damage at any time because of any reason during ww2. So, it should be worthy to find out what a "loss" specificly mean. :?:
     
  3. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    RG just as far out claims were made by the allies ! Actually the U.S. were some of the worst at making such claims !
     
  4. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. In general spoken, the US claims show differences, but if you compare fighter claims you will find it hard to generally note overrated numbers. Most overrated numbers come from the bomber crews, which is a very general statistic appearence (for the RAF and Luftwaffe also, just compare at BoB how much Spits and Hurricanes lost by Heinkel, Junkers and Dornier fire...). Overratings did happen to the US also, sure, but most of it belongs to the bomber crews, which isn´t very surprising.
    The claims for their fighters on the other hand are not as much overrated as you may think...
     
  5. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The system of confirming kills was actually more strict with the Germans ! Although the W-Allies had comparable confirming methods.

    Just take a look at the U.S. kill claims during the early years against Japan ! They are absurd !
     
  6. trackend

    trackend Active Member

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    There really is only one claim that is irrefutable as nearly all others have been denied, dismissed or re-assesed at some time or another (including shipping,aircraft and human losses) by all sides. That is the final victors of the war having said that in the long term some people claim that the Axis country's came of better.
     
  7. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    The system for confirming kills by the Luftwaffe was more strict then most but ofcourse they were overinflated just like everyone else. The RAF, USAAF, and the Soviets did it also. All in all I would say the allies lied more about what they lost then what they shot down. It was a moral issue plus they could not admit it to it, just like the Hitler could not admit defeat even until the very end.
     
  8. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

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    but some were genuine mistakes for example 5 men might take a shot at a plane that's going down an they may all claim it as their won kill, so between them they think they've downed 5 planes when they've downed one.............
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Look at US fighter kills credited, it's far more accurate than Luftwaffe' figures. To get credit you needed to:

    1) have guncam footage clearly showing a kill. Often this meant turning on the guncam and filming the wreckage on the ground.

    2) have the plane hitting the ground, exploding, engulfed in flames, or the pilot bailing out witnessed by TWO witnesses (on some occassions one witness was deemed sufficient).

    3) locate the wreckage.

    Lots of "claims" were made, but that is not the same thing as what was finally credited. Many "kills" were revoked after the war was over.

    The document above shows that the Luftwaffe' fully endorsed false claims as kills, and of course having lost the war they never had the chance to go back and rectify this. Had they not lost the war, who can say if they would or would not have?

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  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Adler, USAAF (and USN) post-war reports accurately record all losses. What was reported to the public during the war is kinda irrelevant.

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  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hmm... if in order to record the kill you must either see it burst into flames, expload, crash into the ground, or the pilot bail out, how could this happen? Clearly the group would know that only one plane had gone in.

    This might account for an occassional false kill claim - it does not account for 2-3:1 overclaiming.

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  12. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Point number 1) and 3) are false, and I know this ! Gun-camera footage wasnt at all needed to confirm a kill, but if it was available it would offcourse be used, the same goes for the Germans who also would use gun-camera footage as proof IF POSSIBLE.

    One could easely locate wild U.S. claims aswell RG, and the guy who wrote your presented document is obviously very biased towards the Allies, and forgets varius key facts.

    Btw RG if you don't want people to start thinking that your very biased towards the U.S., then you should stop making such posts like this one ! Your trying with all your might to make the Germans look like dishonest bastards who highly exagerate their scores, when infact their confirming methods were even more strict tha our own system of confirming kills at that time.

    In the light of post-war investigation, it is now conceded that overclaiming occurred in every airforce. Mostly this was attributable in the heat and confusion of battle. Sometimes it was a case of genuine error - the retail of smoke emitted by a Bf-109 diving away at full throttle fooled many an Allied fighter pilot or air gunner into believing that his oppponent was mortally hit. Only in very rare instances was it a matter of deliberate deceit. And any pilot suspected of falsifying his victory claims was given very short shrift by his peers.
    Each of the combatant airforces tried to regulate claims by a strict set of conditions. None more so than the Luftwaffe, wich required written confirmation of the kill by one or more arieal witnesses to the action, plus - if possible - back-up confirmation, also in writing from an observer on the ground. Given the amount of paperwork this engendered back at OKL in Berlin, it is little wonder that it could sometimes take a year or more for a pilot's claim to recieve official confirmation.


    Source: John Weal who has written alot on the subject.
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Soren - I did not mean to say that all 3 conditions need to be met, rather that any one of them had to be met.

    As for the contention that Luftwaffe' kills were more accurate, it just does not hold water given the overclaiming that occured where the downed planes would be locatable on German soil.
     
  14. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    And why is that? Its still not the truth and having won the war whos to say they never rectified it, which I am sure they did not. Polotics comes into play everywhere not just in the Nazi regime. Sorry RG it goes both ways.

    The Luftwaffe system was very accurate up until late 1944. I am sure there are many discrepencies in the Luftwaffe claims but it goes both ways.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Kill were overclaimed by all sides. Losses however, were accurately recorded but often inaccurately reported during the war. Post-war inaccuracies in the loss data from the USAAF/USN and RAF were rectified because the data existed. For the Luftwaffe', much of such information was destroyed in the late part of the war.

    Politics clearly played a huge role in Luftwaffe' kill credits too. Experten claims were "rushed through" where other pilots had to wait up to a year to recieve official credit. Marseille is a case in point, and it is clear from the document above that he was overclaiming by at least 2:1.

    I agree all sides overclaimed, the point is that the contention that the Luftwaffe' overclaimed less than other air forces appears false - it appears they overclaimed at least as much. And no other air force motivated their pilots to overclaim as much as the Luftwaffe'.

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  16. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Oh please ! :rolleyes:
     
  17. kiwimac

    kiwimac Active Member

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    Fact of the matter is that to trust that a fighter pilot in the middle of a dogfight with adrenaline rushing about his system and in mortal fear of being killed will accurately assess their kill rate is extremely foolish.

    Kiwimac
     
  18. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I just dont believe that Marseille overclaimed that much. Overclaimed some just like every pilot yes, but not that much. Sounds to me that htis document is just BS and trying to put down some of the greatest fighter pilots of all times because they did so well against the victor. Pure Politics to me! Overclaiming happened yes. Some more then others deffinatly, some way more then others but that is like saying that Erich Hartmann did not even get half of his kills that he claimed. Sorry but I can not believe it to that extent. POLITICS
     
  19. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    soley depends on whether or not the Luftwaffe pilots was active in the party. Other than that he had an even chance as any other pilot exclusion of rank. Ture some performers who had the "knack" of air combat were given other pilots victories later in the war. We have proof of Kurt /Welter and his night jet claims.....that is in our book.

    Marseille was hot pure and simple, he could feel his way through an air battle where few could even dare to dread.

    Anton Hackl was another as well as Heinz Bär. although Hartmann, Barkhorn and Rall had extreme scores none of these contended with western forces like the others I mentioned. Rall even had his thumb shot off while in II./JG 11 though his air battle he was not one ven scale with the Jugs chasing his butt. When Rall served as CO of JG 300 in 1945 he did absolutely nothing as to flying as an active member of the Reich defence unit which indeed pisses off many JG 300 veteran today.

    E ~ overclaiming was done by both sides an evident fact to boost home moral. All sides; fighter groups, etc. needed heroes............

    To claim that the Luftwaffe was worse than Western Allies/{kills} is plain bogus, I've been studying these from both sides, angles, call it what you wish since the early 1960's.....

     
  20. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    Erich:

    Still Rall sent 2 Jugs down to bite the ground -on real quick succession-.
     
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