LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

wmaxt · Apr 26, 2005

I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

Soren · Apr 26, 2005

wmaxt said:
I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

German claims aint MUCH closer to the truth, only a very tiny bit, if at all.

I generally considder U.S., British and German claims equally reliable, eventhough some did overclaim more than others, but it wasnt in any substantial way.

Erich · Apr 26, 2005

guess my point is big deal !

Udet, Rall scored 1 Jug as his 275th kill on 12 May 44. 1 P-51 and 1 Jug were scored by his II./JG 11 for a loss of 2 killed, 5 wounded and 11 Bf 109G-6's lost...........

Germans lost 79 a/c with 28 killed and 24 wounded in the days action

Anonymous · Apr 26, 2005

Erich said:
To claim that the Luftwaffe was worse than Western Allies/{kills} is plain bogus, I've been studying these from both sides, angles, call it what you wish since the early 1960's.....♪

Erich, I'm not claiming that the Luftwaffe' was "worse" than the W. Allies about overclaiming, only that they were not better about it. And also and that their claims were never adjusted post war as many allied claims were.

And that evidently politics had more to do with it because of the nature of the German system of medals and honors based upon scoring of kills - no other nation had such a formalized system of rewards. Such as system clearly encourages "cheating", especially for those working on a rack.

=S=

Lunatic

Anonymous · Apr 26, 2005

wmaxt said:
I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

Exactly!

And I agree, bomber gunner kills were way over-claimed. But we really don't care so much about that do we?

=S=

Lunatic

Erich · Apr 26, 2005

Ich verstehen RG.

Soviets were the worst of supplanting their "Aviation heroes". heck all you had to do was survive a day of battle and you were awarded something. Funny elite air units. compared to what ?

the Luftwaffe system was painstaking according to surviving vets whether fighter, bomber, ground attack, recon, etc. As we have chatted about confirmation of claims during the fall of 44 to wars end watered done to nothing we will ever fully know what was confirmed or not so we cannot even compare ideas of whom did what on an equal basis. this was so markedly evident on the Ost front during 1945. There are listings of pilots just given kill credits by stating single engine a/c on certain dates.

delcyros · Apr 26, 2005

I am convinced that we don´t have that distant positions here. Just remember, the Luftwaffe had a system of official confirmation. However, it could take years for some individuals and days for others, indicating that a few have been handled in a suspect way. Further we have the position that most late war claims haven´t been confirmed either. There is just a kind of official registration with the general insurance that concrete invetisgations will be done after wars end. The verification of these claims is task of historicans, or isn´t it?
By the way, Hartmann was officially accused by the Soviets in 1948 for the destruction of 345 of the peoples fighters...

Anonymous · Apr 26, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I just dont believe that Marseille overclaimed that much. Overclaimed some just like every pilot yes, but not that much. Sounds to me that htis document is just BS and trying to put down some of the greatest fighter pilots of all times because they did so well against the victor. Pure Politics to me! Overclaiming happened yes. Some more then others deffinatly, some way more then others but that is like saying that Erich Hartmann did not even get half of his kills that he claimed. Sorry but I can not believe it to that extent. POLITICS

Well, lets look at the info presented:

Marseille, The Star of Africa, was awarded his first kill on 8 September for a Spitfire, on the same day 4 other Spitfires were claimed though the RAF only lost 1, was Marseille mistaken and he destroyed a Hurricane, OKL awarded 8 Hurricane kills but Frank's details only 4 as being shot down!! Marseille went on to claim 6 other victories over the Channel, none of which are detailed in any official records but go to make up his tally of 158 "kills".

Okay, so lets assume that Marseille scored either the 1 Spitfire or one of the 4 Hurc's lost that day. But that still leaves the 6 false claims over the channel.

12 Oct 1941
Allied losses, 2 P-40's were shot down, 1 crashed on landing, 1 crashed inside Allied lines.
4 kills were awarded, 2 to Marseille, 1 to Sinner Franzikest

Well, it's getting a little sketchy but lets assume both claims were legit (meaning Sinner Franzikest's kills were not).

3 September 1942
2 P-40's shot down, 1 crash landed at base.
6 kills awarded, 3 to Marseille 3 to Stahlschmidt (including a Spitfire, not present)

Well, here Marseille's could only have a maximum of 2 legitimate "confirmed" victories, and we have to assume then that all 3 of Stahlshmidt's claims were false.

5 September 1942
2 Spitfires shot down, 1 P-40 shot down and 1 damaged
9 Kills awarded, 4 (All P-40) to Marseille, 2 to Stahlschmidt and 3 to Rodel

This time, a maximum of 3 legit kills were possible, assuming that all 5 other claims were false and Marseille mis identified Spitfires as P-40's.

15 September 1942
5 P-40 shot down and 1 shot down by own LAA
7 kills for Marseille, 4 to Krainek, 3 to Schroer (incl Spitfire)2 for von Lieres and singles to Homuth, Bornger, Grube Stuckler.

A maximum of 5 legit kills assuming all 13 other kills were false.

So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

=S=

Lunatic

Anonymous · Apr 26, 2005

Erich said:
Ich verstehen RG.

Soviets were the worst of supplanting their "Aviation heroes". heck all you had to do was survive a day of battle and you were awarded something. Funny elite air units. compared to what ?

the Luftwaffe system was painstaking according to surviving vets whether fighter, bomber, ground attack, recon, etc. As we have chatted about confirmation of claims during the fall of 44 to wars end watered done to nothing we will ever fully know what was confirmed or not so we cannot even compare ideas of whom did what on an equal basis. this was so markedly evident on the Ost front during 1945. There are listings of pilots just given kill credits by stating single engine a/c on certain dates.

Well, it serves them to have had the confirmation system be as legitimized as possible. This does not make it so.

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system, and probably less accurate than the US claim system which generally required definative guncam proof of a kill, but "probables" were awarded pretty causually. Even kills "withnessed" by a wingman were often credited. If you didn't get it on film and the flight leader didn't see it, you usually didn't get credit unless the wreck was located and there were no other claims in that area at that time. Some kills that were awarded during the war under less than stringent proof were revoked after the war.

=S=

Lunatic

Soren · Apr 26, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system, and probably less accurate than the US claim system which generally required definative guncam proof of a kill,

RG Gun-camera footage wasnt at all needed to confirm a kill, and was only used IF POSSIBLE ! (The exact same goes for the Germans)

delcyros · Apr 26, 2005

Since the claims of Marsaille are that important for the chain of clues I will check it´s sources. I read a few years ago this particular article and some contrary articles about it. I am sure, these loss rates have been highly misinterpreted by the authors, who didn´t take losses by auxilary forces (South African, Australian) into account. However I cannot proof in the moment but I check it in within a week. Anyway, I believe that there have been overclaiming in the Luftwaffe fighter force, sure.

Erich · Apr 27, 2005

Dr. Jochen Priens volume on I./JG 27 should give you plenty of information from the German archiv's and the JG 27 Gemeinschaft.

♪♪

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 27, 2005

Soren said:
wmaxt said:

I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

Click to expand...

German claims aint MUCH closer to the truth, only a very tiny bit, if at all.

I generally considder U.S., British and German claims equally reliable, eventhough some did overclaim more than others, but it wasnt in any substantial way.

This I completey agree with and is what I have been trying to say the whole time.

RG_Lunatic said:
So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

I am sorry but I simply just can not belive this. Maybe because it is written by the side that was getting shot down by him, but I have just read to many other accounts that state his kills. I am sure he overclaimed some however I doubt by 77 percent.

RG_Lunatic said:
My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system

The problem here is no one here is disputing what you are saying here. Just that it was done just as much as others. Polotics my friend, polotics again. For someone who seems to know so much about polotics running the military you dont seem to understand this. The allies poloticians and higher ups ran the propoganda just as much as the Nazi's did.

Anonymous · Apr 27, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
RG_Lunatic said:

So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

Click to expand...

I am sorry but I simply just can not belive this. Maybe because it is written by the side that was getting shot down by him, but I have just read to many other accounts that state his kills. I am sure he overclaimed some however I doubt by 77 percent.

Addler, to make that 77% over-kill number look at the number of other Luftwaffe' pilots who had to be totally making false claims. That figure is based upon Marseilles having gotten all the kills possible. The number is very conservative - it was in fact probably much higher.

The problem I see with relying on those accounts is they all had a vested interest in supporting his claims, and once they'd done so a vested interest in not changing their stories.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
RG_Lunatic said:

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system

Click to expand...

The problem here is no one here is disputing what you are saying here. Just that it was done just as much as others. Polotics my friend, polotics again. For someone who seems to know so much about polotics running the military you dont seem to understand this. The allies poloticians and higher ups ran the propoganda just as much as the Nazi's did.

The Nazi's were huge on propoganda - in Spring 1944 most of the German army believed that NYC was being bombed by the Luftwaffe' on a regular basis, and the German army in Italy was being told that the German army on the E. front was winning against the Russians. While it is true the US and Britain ran their own propoganda campaigns, they were no where near as outragous as the German's.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 27, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

RG_Lunatic said:

So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

Click to expand...

I am sorry but I simply just can not belive this. Maybe because it is written by the side that was getting shot down by him, but I have just read to many other accounts that state his kills. I am sure he overclaimed some however I doubt by 77 percent.

Click to expand...

Addler, to make that 77% over-kill number look at the number of other Luftwaffe' pilots who had to be totally making false claims. That figure is based upon Marseilles having gotten all the kills possible. The number is very conservative - it was in fact probably much higher.

The problem I see with relying on those accounts is they all had a vested interest in supporting his claims, and once they'd done so a vested interest in not changing their stories.

So you are saying that Marsailles overclaiming was more than 77% and so lets say he probably actually shot down less then 20 out of 100 of his claims? If that is what you are implying then I am implying that you are full of #$%@. I hope that I do not have to imply this, and that I am mearly just misunderstanding you.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
RG_Lunatic said:

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system

The problem here is no one here is disputing what you are saying here. Just that it was done just as much as others. Polotics my friend, polotics again. For someone who seems to know so much about polotics running the military you dont seem to understand this. The allies poloticians and higher ups ran the propoganda just as much as the Nazi's did.

Click to expand...

The Nazi's were huge on propoganda - in Spring 1944 most of the German army believed that NYC was being bombed by the Luftwaffe' on a regular basis, and the German army in Italy was being told that the German army on the E. front was winning against the Russians. While it is true the US and Britain ran their own propoganda campaigns, they were no where near as outragous as the German's.

=S=

Lunatic

I am not implying that the Nazi propoganda was not crazy. It most certainly was and easily a second to the communist Soviet propoganda but the US and British propoganda altered the truth probably more then you want to admit to support there stories and claims. Allies pilots today still over exagerate there stories just to make them sound and look much better then they truely were and to downplay the Luftwaffe's ability.

Erich · Apr 27, 2005

RG really do not think your statement about NYC as being valid. Even in the spring of 44 German Heer, Luftwaffe, W-SS truppen were fighting for their lives and they knew they were not on the winning end, but they did their duty as best they could

getting back to the star of Afrika:

http://www.jg27.de

another site to check out for other German viewpoint. Marseille was a crowd pleaser and was used as a major propaganda tool all over Europe. could be quite true that some of kills were from other I./JG 27 pilots and the points and zum Wohl toasts were to his favour.

Preddy of course was used as an instrumental propaganda tool while with the US 352nd fg 'Blue Nosers" as the top Mustang pilot to beat in the ETO, and many fighter groups tried in their best way to meet his able score.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 27, 2005

I will not discount that some of his kills were overclaimed or propaganda. I have stated taht before however I dont think it was as high as 77 percent as RG believes as his bible.

Erich · Apr 27, 2005

I do not think that any of I./JG 27's kills in Afrika are pure propaganda myth. JG 27 besides JG 77 were the only Luftw wings able to counter Allied US and RAF-Aussie threats.

Marseille was brilliant as a pilot but there is some serious debate even from German hoistorians as whether or not some of his kills, and it is known how many, but that some may have been scored by wingmen and others of his staffel-gruppe. On the other big hand maybe we have some pure Allied B.S. to cover some victorious ass as Afrika was lost by German forces. We cannot discount this no matter what has been claimed as pure fact written into Allied documentive texts. I have seen many and it is not add up.

Ground line is that we may not get anywhere trying to compare notes if available of whom shot down who and the final outcome when the indivdual air battles are conceaded.

♪

Anonymous · Apr 27, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
So you are saying that Marsailles overclaiming was more than 77% and so lets say he probably actually shot down less then 20 out of 100 of his claims? If that is what you are implying then I am implying that you are full of #$%@. I hope that I do not have to imply this, and that I am mearly just misunderstanding you.

20 - No, but perhaps as few as 80 of his 158 claims? Quite possible.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I am not implying that the Nazi propoganda was not crazy. It most certainly was and easily a second to the communist Soviet propoganda but the US and British propoganda altered the truth probably more then you want to admit to support there stories and claims. Allies pilots today still over exagerate there stories just to make them sound and look much better then they truely were and to downplay the Luftwaffe's ability.

Allied pilots definitely - wartime propoganda yes - but the statistics and raw data of the post-war military studies - I think not. If you look at them, they are very generous of German capability. It was important to be as accurate as possible to assess the situtation w.r.t. the Russians.

And as far as "making themselves sound and look much better...", what makes you sound better - that you defeated a weak foe or that you defeated a strong one?

=S=

Lunatic

Erich · Apr 27, 2005

RG I think you will find that by sitting down with many US fighter pilots and talk with them about late 44 till wars end you can safely say the vets think the Luftwaffe pilots were all crap. Ego ? maybe, maybe not.

As for the star of Afrika it appears that maybe 25-30 kills can be attributed to other German pilots but ya know none of us were there so that pretty much squelchs it. As for the Allied histories well at least for RAF there are practically none. It has been only the last 5 years after serious digging that RAF night heavy groups/the net: are just coming out with "official" statements to true losses and they were more than what was given during the war and after until now.

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