M4A1(76mm)W

[Airframes]

Thanks ramc. It looks like we were posting at the same time! I must admit, my first thoughts were it was a factory casting reproduction, it was just the size and the registration mark which threw me.
I also hadn't spotted that the 'R' was an 'H' !!

 

[Lucky13]

Thank you ever so much! Was worried that Dragon had done a bo-bo there!

 

[Glider]

No offense to the Brits, and while they weren't the only Army doing stupid things, but they had a couple of head scratchers that still bug me. The 3.7" AA gun in Egypt was one of them. While British tanks are being chewed up by German 88s in the desert 200 miles west of them, these guns are stuck in the AA role because that was what the doctrine said they should do.

Can only wonder what they'd done if they were allowed to be used against the Africa Corp in a ground role like the Germans did with their 88s. True, the crews weren't trained for it and there probably wasn't a supply of AP rounds, but that could've been rectified fairly easily.

When you look at the damage that a mere 40 of the German 88s wreaked on British Armor at El Alamien, it can only make you wonder who was in charge back in Cairo.

No offence taken. Last year I read an obituary of an artillery officer. He commanded a unit of 3.7in in Egypt and deliberately allowed his unit to get involved in a tank action by not retreating when told to. It worked and he was court marshalled.
In many cases on land and in the air, the British could be incredibly narrow and small minded, but also quite special in others. Its something about the way we do things

 

[vikingBerserker]

It worked and he was court marshalled???

Man should have been awarded a medal!!!!

-----------------

Jan I have to say, I've never seen treads like that before in a model.

 

[ramc181]

There was a big debate on the 3.7" vs 88 AA in the AT role a few years back.
I can't recall much of the detail, but it boiled down to the 88s having a welded carriage which could withstand horizontal fire, but the 3.7" with it's riveted carriage would shake itself apart if used repeatedly in the horizontal position.

All the best,
PB

 

[Glider]

I admit that I hadn't heard about the carriage, I understood the main problem was the size and weight of the gun.

 

[timshatz]

There was a big debate on the 3.7" vs 88 AA in the AT role a few years back.
I can't recall much of the detail, but it boiled down to the 88s having a welded carriage which could withstand horizontal fire, but the 3.7" with it's riveted carriage would shake itself apart if used repeatedly in the horizontal position.

All the best,
PB

Hadn't heard that either but it makes sense. Figuring the forces present in a level shot do not work the same as in a vertical shot. I guess the back feet of the trail would take most of the force and the front feet would be affected much less. If it's riveted, and not designed for the stress, that would eventually knock it apart. Question becomes, will it come apart before the barrel wears and and the thing has to be overhauled anyway? If so, maybe those rivets are just part of the checks. Just speculating at this point.

But, at least, they could've tried. Ya' know?

But it seems odd the Germans thought that far ahead on the problem. Or maybe they didn't and just took advantage of the situation presented by the welded carriage.

 

[timshatz]

FYI, found this one Wiki:

"Like other Britsh guns the 3.7 had a secondary anti-tank role, this meant that if the gun position came under tank attack it would engage the tanks. However, during the campaign in North Africa the shortage of capable anti-tank guns led to some agitation to use the 3.7 in a primary anti-tank role, ie deployed specifically for anti-tank defence.

Guns did have their sighting arrangements improved to enable better anti-tank shooting. However, it was only used in one or two emergencies. The arrival of the 17-pr anti-tank gun in late 1942 made a primary role irrelevant for 3.7.

The 3.7 was inherently unsuitable as an anti-tank gun. The was big and heavy, almost twice the weight of the German 88, making it tactically unsuitable for use in forward areas. Additionally, heavy AA Regiments equipped with the 3.7 gun were relatively few in number in the field army and controlled by Corps or Army HQ, or at even higher level HQs, and command of them was not often devolved to the commanders at Divisional level where the anti-tank role might be required. Prolonged firing at low elevations (not part of the original specification) also strained the mounting and recuperating gear.

The guns were used in the field artillery role quite extensively in the second half of the war in Italy, NW Europe, Burma and the SW Pacific. Batteries were issued with the necessary fire control equipment. Counter-battery or counter-mortar fire was the usual role. However, their HE ammunition seems to have always been fuzed for airburst, this means maximum ranges were limited to 9,200 yards with No 199 fuze and 16,200 yards with No 208."

Airburst rounds in the Dessert would've been brutal.

 

[Lucky13]

Interesting stuff lads...

 

[Lucky13]

Hmmmm..... Since I know jack squat about tank markings I have a question.
What does these mean 2(triangle)66(triangle) and D13?
Is it like it says in the instructions, 2 Armoured Division, 66 Armoured Regiment,
Not too sure about the D13 though, is that Company D, 13th Vehicle?

 

[Airframes]

Yep, that's it. The British Army used a series of geometric symbols to denote the Divisions, with the Regiment number enclosed within. The D13 almost certainly denoted 'D' Company, or maybe 'D' Squadron, radio call sign One Three, not necessarily tank number 13, it could be tank 3 of 1 Platoon for instance.

 

[Lucky13]

Right...much obliged young man! It's Company D, 13th tank to me Sire...

 

[Lucky13]

2Δ+66Δ+--------------------->D13 Just to show what it looks like.

 

[Airframes]

Now I'm totally confused! Got the charts of Div markings etc somewhere, but b*gg*rd if i know where!

 

[mikewint]

10. Unit markings.—Gasoline solvent paint or paint as prescribed by the War Department will be used.

a. Unit markings.—National symbol.

(1) A white five-pointed star will be the national symbol of all motor vehicles assigned to tactical units. Administrative motor vehicles operating in an active theater of operations will be similarly marked when directed by the theater commander.

(2) The size of the national symbol will be determined for each type of motor vehicle and will be large enough to take advantage of the surface upon which to be painted. See figures 1 to 34.

(3) Whenever requirements for camouflage and concealment outweigh the requirements for recognition, the national symbol may be covered by lusterless olive-drab gasoline solvent paint, camouflage nets, oil and dirt, etc., or will be removed.

b. Unit identification symbols.

(1) Front and rear markings.—See figures 1 to 34 for location.

(a) General.—Front and rear markings are identical and consist of four groups in consecutive order, from the left to right when facing the vehicle, separated by a dash 1 inch long. Markings may be on a single line or on two lines, but in no case will groups be broken nor order of groupings be changed. If two lines are used, the first and third groups will be on the top row. Composition of groups is indicated below.

(b) First group.—The first group will designate the smallest appropriate unit listed below in accordance with the following code:
Unit Designation
Division (infantry) Arabic numeral.
Division (armored) Arabic numeral followed by triangle 3 inches high with ¼-inch stroke.
Division (cavalry) Arabic numeral followed by letter C.
Corps (army) Roman numeral.
Corps (cavalry) Roman numeral followed by letter C.
Corps (armored) Roman numeral followed by triangle 3 inches high with ¼-inch stroke.
Army Arabic numeral followed by letter A.
Air force Arabic numeral followed by a star 3 inches high.
Zone of communications ZC.
Army Ground Forces AGF.
Services of Supply SOS.
General Headquarters GHQ.
Zone of interior ZI.
Reception center RC.
Replacement training center RTC preceded by arm or service symbol.
Training center TC preceded by arm or service symbol.
Firing center FC preceded by arm or service symbol.
All others Nonconflicting letters.

(c) Second group.—The second group will designate separate regiment, separate brigades; groups, separate battalions, or separate companies, and similar units by appropriate number or symbol, followed by arm or service in accordance with abbreviations listed below. When indicating headquarters and headquarters companies or special companies of units identified in first group, the second group will consist only of the letter "X." When indicating brigades, the numeral will be underlined.
Arm or service Designation
Airborne AB
Army Air Forces units Star 3 inches high.
Antiaircraft AA
Amphibious AM
Armored regiment Triangle 3 inches high with ¼-inch stroke.
Cavalry C
Chemical Warfare Service G
Coast Artillery Corps CA
Corps of Engineers E
Field Artillery FA
Infantry I (preceded by dash ½-inch square)
Medical Department M
Military police P
Ordnance Department O (preceded by dash ½-inch square)
Quartermaster Corps Q
Signal Corps S
Tank Destroyer TD
Tank group TG

(d) Third group.—The third group will designate companies and similar organizations by letters in accordance with the following code:
Organization Designation
Headquarters and headquarters company (or headquarters and headquarters and service company) of lowest unit identification in previous groups. HQ
Service company of lowest unit identified in service groups. SV
Headquarters and headquarters company of battalion not previously identified. Numerical designation of battalion followed by letters HQ.
Service company of battalion not previously identified. Battalion number followed by letters SV.
Lettered company Letter designation.
Separate company identified in second group. X or abbreviation of company.
Antitank AT
Maintenance MT
Heavy weapons HW
Cannon CN
Reconnaissance R
Train TN
Weapons W
"Name" company (other than headquarters company, headquarters and service company or service company). Nonconflicting letters assigned for identification purposes, preceded by the battalion number, when necessary.

(e) Fourth group.—The fourth group will designate the serial number of the vehicle in normal order of march within the organization to which it is assigned. Vehicles assigned to any headquarters will be combined for purposes of numbering with those of the appropriate headquarters company or similar organization, and will be given the smaller serial numbers used therein.

(2) Examples.

(a) 1—X—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Co, 1st Inf Div.
1—X—1S—10 10th vehicle, 1st Sig Co, 1st Inf Div.
1—X—1R—10 10th vehicle, 1st Rcn Tr, 1st Inf Div.
1—16-I—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 16th Inf, 1st Inf Div.
1—F—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Btry, Div Arty, 1st Inf Div.
1—33F—D—10 10th vehicle, Btry D, 33d FA Bn, 1st Inf Div.
1—1E—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 1st Engr Bn, 1st Inf Div.
1—1M—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A (Coll), 1st Med Bn, 1st Inf Div.
1—1Q—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 1st QM Bn, 1st Inf Div.
(b) 1Δ—X—SV—10 10th vehicle, Serv. Co, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—81R—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 81st Rcn Bn, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—1Δ—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 1st Armd Regt, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—27F—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 27th FA Bn, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—16E—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 16th Engr Bn, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—6–I—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 6th Inf, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—TN—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Co, Div Tn, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—1-O—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, Maint Bn, 1st Armd Div.
1Δ—1Q—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, Sup Bn, 1st Armd Div.
(c) 1C—X—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Tr, 1st Cay. Div.
1C—X—1S—10 10th vehicle, 1st Sig Tr, 1st Cav Div.
1C—91R—A—10 10th vehicle, Tr A, 91st Rcn Sq, 1st Cav Div.
1C—X—27-O—10 10th vehicle, 27th Ord Co, 1st Cav Div.
1C—1C—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Tr, let Cav Brig, 1st Cav Div.
1C—12C—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Tr, 12th Cav, 1st Cav Div.
1C—F—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Btry, Div Arty, 1st Cav Div.
1C—61F—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 61st FA Bn, 1st Cav Div.
1C—8E—A—10 10th vehicle, Tr A, 8th Engr Bn, 1st Cav Div.
1C—1M—A—10 10th vehicle, Tr A, let Med Sq, 1st Cav Div.
1C—1Q—A—10 10th vehicle, Tr A, 1st QM Sq, 1st Cav Div.
(d) 2A—21Q—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 21st QM Regt, Second Army.
3A—61Q—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 61st QM Bn, Third Army.
★—1Q—SVAV—10 10th vehicle, 1st QM Co, Serv Gp, (Avn) AAF.
3A—21Q—CAR—10 10th vehicle, 21st QM Car Co, Third Army.
3A—56Q—COM—10 10th vehicle, 56th QM Sales Comm Co, Third Army.
3A—67Q—REF—10 10th vehicle, 67th QM Ref Co, Third Army.
4A—79Q—DP—10 10th vehicle, 79th QM Depot Co, Fourth Army.
1A—87Q—RHD—10 10th vehicle, 87th QM Rhd Co, First Army.
1A—132Q—TRK—10 10th vehicle, 132d QM Trk Co, First Army.
★—862Q—MT—10 10th vehicle, 862d QM L Maint Co, AAF.
(e) GHQ—101M—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 101 Med Regt, GHQ.
II—40M—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 40th Med Bn, II Army Corps.
3A—1M—VET—10 10th vehicle, 1st Vet Co, Third Army.
II—701M—SAN—10 10th vehicle, 701st Sn Co, II Army Corps.
II—3M—EV—10 10th vehicle, 3d Evac Hosp, II Army Corps.
3A—53M—GEN—10 10th vehicle, 53d Gen Hosp, Third Army.
1A—151M—STA—10 10th vehicle, 151st Sta Hosp, First Army.
3A—63M—SUR—10 10th vehicle, 63d Surg Hosp, Third Army.
3A—16M—VET—10 10th vehicle, 16th Vet Evac Hosp, Third Army.
1A—1M—DP—10 10th vehicle, 1st Med Sup Dep, First Army.
3A—2M—LAB—10 10th vehicle, 2d Med Lab, Third Army.
(f) 1A—101P—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 101st MP Bn, First Army.
ZI—704P—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 704th MP Bn, ZI.
IV—X—44P—10 10th vehicle, 44th MP Co, IV Army Corps.
(g) IX—18E—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 18th Engr, IX Army Corps.
II—62E—D—10 10th vehicle, Co D, 62d Top Engr, II Army Corps.
(h) 1A-41-O—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 41st Ord Bn, First Army.
I—1-O—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Hq Det, 1st Ord Bn, I Army Corps.
3A—X—60-O—10 10th vehicle, 60th Ord Co, Third Army.
★—714-O—AB—10 10th vehicle, 714 Ord Co, AB, AAF.
(i) IIΔ—1S—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 1st Sig Bn, I Armd Corps.
III—26S—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 26th Sig Bn, III Army Corps.
★—X—S—10 10th vehicle, Sig Co, AAF.
III—X—280S—10 10th vehicle, 280th Sig Co, III Army Corps.
ZI—1S—SV—10 10th vehicle, 1st Sig Serv Co, ZI.
(j) 1A—2G—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 2d Cml Bn, First Army.
3A—3G—MT—10 10th vehicle, 3d Cml Co Maint, Third Army.
3A—3G—DP—10 10th vehicle, 3d Cml Co, Dep, Third Army.
(k) II—13F—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Btry, 13th FA Brig, II Army Corps.
I—17F—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 17th FA, I Army Corps.
1A—6F—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 6th FA Bn, First Army.
GHQ—71F—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 71st FA Bn, GHQ.
I—1FOB—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 1st FA Obsn Bn, I Army Corps.
(l) 3A—33CA—HQ—10 10th vehicle, Hq Btry, 33 CAC Brig, Third Army.
1A—2CA—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 2d CAC, First Army.
AA—302CA—A—10 10th vehicle, Btry A, 302 CAC, AA Comd.
(m) 2A—601TD—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A. 601 TD Bn, Second Army.
TD—693TD—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, 693 TD Bn, TD Comd.
(n) ★—850E—A—10 10th vehicle, Co A, Engr Bn Avn, AAF.

(3) How marked.—Unit identification markings will be painted in white letters on olive-drab background.

See Picture: 11Δ 42Δ SV-61

Captured German RSO (Raupenschlepper Ost) tractor with markings for vehicle 61 of Service Company, 42nd Tank Battalion, 11th Armored Division.

 

[Lucky13]

That was a mouthful Mike, cheers mate!

Looking at this table it is 2Δ = 2nd Armoured Division, 66Δ = 66th Armoured Regiment and D13 = 13th vehicle Company D.
Seems like using the kit decals, I'll get my '13'....
Btw, the tank is named 'DUKE'....

 

[mikewint]

Airframes said he was looking for his so thought I'd post the whole thing for anyone else that is interested. so you got it Lucky, glad I could help

 

[Airframes]

Great stuff Mike. I forgot Jan's model was an American division - got confused with his Sherman 'Firefly' - the stuff I can't find is for British armoured units.

 

[Lucky13]

I try to find something decent as well on the British and Commonwealth divisions....

 

[mikewint]

I looked around and could find nothing definitive about British markings, everything I do is American so have never really looked before