Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Oh, and the Italian Navy was called Regia Marina. Marine militaire is French.
Kris
Kris
Malta 1940
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- #102
Shortround6
Major General
Given up when? The planners had given up in 1937/38 but there seems to have been a bit of a change of heart by 1940. Not that Malta saw any great amount of supplies coming in but some of those Malta Infantry units didn't exist in the 1930s .
And " the British decided in July 1939 to increase the number of anti-aircraft guns and fighters on Malta". with the needs of the rest of the Empire Malta didn't get anywhere near top priority but that doesn't mean they gave up on it. Did Malta get 3.7" AA guns before June of 1940?
Uh, no. Malta was ripe for the taking, but like grapes or fruit on high branches, it was as out of reach to the Italians as the high fruit is to pickers with no ladders. The Italian Navy had, in now way,shape or form the ability to put several divisions ashore in a short period of time. Unless they use the desperation measure of running the transporting ships aground and having the soldiers swim for shore. Suitable landing beaches are few in number, well known ( the Island had been invaded a number of times in the preceding centuries) and covered by shore batteries.
There is no need for British replacements to arrive to drive the Italians into the sea. By the time any British replacements could arrive (unless they were already on transports at Gibraltar Or Egypt) the Sea Battle will be over. If the Italians win it is over for British Malta, if the British win the Italian soldiers on Malta have only the weapons and ammo they managed to get ashore before the RN showed up, limited food and depending on which towns they have managed to capture, perhaps limited water. British and Maltese troops have what ever is stockpiled in bunkers and supply dumps, perhaps not much but how much did the Italians get ashore using ships boats and a few fishing vessels to supplement their all too scarce landing ships/craft. Please note the losses the allies suffered in EVERY landing of beached, brooched and holed landing craft within 2 days of the initial landings and the equipment used to salvage them.
parsifal
Colonel
Maltaa has historically been a very difficult place to invade , as the Sultan of turkey found out in the 1550s. And in that fight, the Maltese, whom are being dismiossed here as ineffective fighters, with a miniscule force (from memmory about 500 Knights Templar and about 2-3000 islanders fought off a force that managed to get ashore but then was beaten back with heavy losses. Maltese are, by nature ferocious fighters, as Napoleon found out again 300 years later.
I dont think the italians would even get ashore frankly. There are few beaches, and those that there are are covered generally by the most imposing heights ion their flanks. There really only one or two invasion points. As Freebird showed in his deployment map, every major entry pointwas covered in 1940, and becuse of the nature of the constructed beaches, every beach covered by significant levels of Coastal artillery. Heavy concentrations of coastaL artiller demands sustained bombardment, and sustained bombardment will take time. If there was any RN presence at all, history shows us that the italians coul;d only deal with such situations by using their superior speed to keep the range open....something they could not do if tied to an amphibious fleet.
So, with limited fire support, a small lift capability, a need for a prolonged sofftening up bombardment, what are the allies going to do. They will concentrate their forces at the point of invasion. So, the regimental sized Italian invasion force will be assaulting maybe 2 or 3 batallions of defenders, dug in, with enfilade fire, troops with a history and tradition of being ferocious fighters, into terrain anything but ideal for invasion. I predict a massacre in that situation.
And, its untrue that there were no reserves. Britain never lost control of the central basin in 1940, and a brigade was deployed to Gibraltor to cover just such a situation. not sure about Egypt, but with 8 divs training in the Delta, one could reasonably surmise that a ready reserve was there as well. . So imedialtely upon this invasion being detected, which would be I think about a week in advance, one can expect, or should make allowance for likley British reacxtion, rather than play up italian capabailities way beyond anything they ever actually achieved during the war, and play down British capabilities way below anything they ever attempted or achieved.
As for the italian air force, well, history shows that the RN was quite prepred to fight it out with them in the the waters around Malta, and history also shows the Italian Air Force to be almost totally inneffective in 1940 in the two areas they needed to work in in this projected invasion.....fleet support and ground support. So too was the RAF, but the FAA was an altogether different story. Able to attack effectively at night, with well trained crews, good ordinance, and well worked out tactics.....they would have hurt the italians in a big way
I dont think the italians would even get ashore frankly. There are few beaches, and those that there are are covered generally by the most imposing heights ion their flanks. There really only one or two invasion points. As Freebird showed in his deployment map, every major entry pointwas covered in 1940, and becuse of the nature of the constructed beaches, every beach covered by significant levels of Coastal artillery. Heavy concentrations of coastaL artiller demands sustained bombardment, and sustained bombardment will take time. If there was any RN presence at all, history shows us that the italians coul;d only deal with such situations by using their superior speed to keep the range open....something they could not do if tied to an amphibious fleet.
So, with limited fire support, a small lift capability, a need for a prolonged sofftening up bombardment, what are the allies going to do. They will concentrate their forces at the point of invasion. So, the regimental sized Italian invasion force will be assaulting maybe 2 or 3 batallions of defenders, dug in, with enfilade fire, troops with a history and tradition of being ferocious fighters, into terrain anything but ideal for invasion. I predict a massacre in that situation.
And, its untrue that there were no reserves. Britain never lost control of the central basin in 1940, and a brigade was deployed to Gibraltor to cover just such a situation. not sure about Egypt, but with 8 divs training in the Delta, one could reasonably surmise that a ready reserve was there as well. . So imedialtely upon this invasion being detected, which would be I think about a week in advance, one can expect, or should make allowance for likley British reacxtion, rather than play up italian capabailities way beyond anything they ever actually achieved during the war, and play down British capabilities way below anything they ever attempted or achieved.
As for the italian air force, well, history shows that the RN was quite prepred to fight it out with them in the the waters around Malta, and history also shows the Italian Air Force to be almost totally inneffective in 1940 in the two areas they needed to work in in this projected invasion.....fleet support and ground support. So too was the RAF, but the FAA was an altogether different story. Able to attack effectively at night, with well trained crews, good ordinance, and well worked out tactics.....they would have hurt the italians in a big way
From June 1940 to January 1941 the Italians had bombed the British navies with limited success. It took the Luftwaffe six and a half minutes to reduce HMS Illustrious to what one naval historian (Richard Woodman) described as "an impotent liability".
The watching Cunningham remembered that Illustrious disappeared "in a forest of great bomb splashes.....there was no doubt we were watching complete experts.....we could not but admire the skill and precision of it all."
Boyd described the attack on his ship as "severe, brilliantly executed and pressed home with the utmost skill and determination."
That pretty much sums it up for me, the Luftwaffe had most certainly arrived and things were going to get a lot more difficult.
Cheers
Steve
parsifal
Colonel
ah yes, if the germans are there, it might be different.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
I agree with your analysis of Italian military capabilities. But do not forget in what lousy state the British were in. Equipment, training and tactics were all outdated. Granted, better than those of the Italians as demonstrated in Libya in 1940.
This may be difficult to believe, but you have to see this in its time frame: this was before any Italian defeats. The British believed the Italian army, navy and air force was on a good to very high level. In fact, Churchill was willing to cede Malta to the Italians in return for peace, although his memoirs hide these intentions. It was only after the first weeks, that a gradual turn came in the assessment of Malta and the decision was taken to defend it.
So feel free to discuss what could have been done to protect Malta, but keep in mind what the historical situation was in June 1940.
Kris
Of course, they reinforced Malta before the war, just like they reinforced everywhere. But in June 1940, Churchill and his cabinet decided that Malta could not be held. If the Italians would invade the island, no reinforcements would be send and the Royal Navy would NOT intervene.
This may be difficult to believe, but you have to see this in its time frame: this was before any Italian defeats. The British believed the Italian army, navy and air force was on a good to very high level. In fact, Churchill was willing to cede Malta to the Italians in return for peace, although his memoirs hide these intentions. It was only after the first weeks, that a gradual turn came in the assessment of Malta and the decision was taken to defend it.
So feel free to discuss what could have been done to protect Malta, but keep in mind what the historical situation was in June 1940.
Kris
Civettone, very good point the British were unable to realise just how weak the Italians were until the Italian defeats started. We take the weakness of Italian forces for granted these days, but on paper in 1940 the Italians looked very dangerous, once again it is easy to see things with hindsight. I suppose the question is how much confidence the Italians had in their capabilities in 1940.
DonL
Banned
I'm not going again for the Malta issue, but please stay to the facts!
The Italians had a whole class of landingships, which could deliver up to 5000men or 3000men with howitzer and small tanks.
I have posted a list in this forum with all ships the Italian Navy had 1940, which were able to deliver troops as landingships.
So stay to the facts and not some myths!
Edit to stona:
What has your reply to do, with the claim the Italian Navy had not the ships and capacity to do a landing with several thousand men?
They had the ships, landingships.
Last edited:
They could have had any amount of materiel. They did not have the will to mount such an operation. Every operation they had attempted (unless against men equipped with sharpened sticks) had either failed or been a close run thing. I include their "invasion" of Albania. Most senior Albanian military officers had left the country before the Italians arrived. Where there was even a semblance of resistance the vastly superior Italian forces faltered. However undermanned and under gunned the resistance from the British and Maltese would have been ferocious. When the RN arrived, as it surely would, how much would you bet on the Italian ships staying and fighting?
The only way the Italians could have landed was by seizing a port, preferably Valetta. The Italians, as I intimated above, had struggled to seize Durres from a few Gendarmes and local irregulars. Valetta or Marsaxlokk would be a different prospect.
Cheers
Steve
parsifal
Colonel
The Italians had about 70 landing craft and maybe 3 to 10 landing ships. the landing ships were unsuited to direct beaching, or if they did, were never going to get off that beach. They had special craft for landing, with a theoretical total lift of about 500 troops, but when tactically loaded more like 150. these used raised gangways to unload their troops so that the ship did not get stuck on the beach. The craft also had dragging anchors to try and keep the ship stable whilst debarking the cargoes. But they did noit have proper dredge anchors that could be used to pull the craft off the beaches like allied LSTs and the like later did. Light tanks under the most ideal conditions could be unloaded from these ships. Any sort of tidal movemement, or swell or wave action and these craft were in trouble and could not really in any way be seen as anything comparable to the later Allied LSTs LCIs and LCVPs. They were workable, but innefficient, and their estimated lift capacities under comabat conditions, wildly optimistic in my opinion.
The Italians could and did have the lift capacity to move up to about 30000 men, but their ship to shore capability was very limited and inneffieicnt, and appears to not exceed about 1500 men. They could use boats, Gallipoli style, but this would place them at a severe disadvantage. The converted civilian craft they may have commandeered would, in my opinion be highly unlikely to be a recoverable asset. Use once and throw away basically, and in the narrow confines of the Malta beaches, not suitable. For an invasion to work, the beaches would have to remain clear and be under very tight beachmaster control. Ships would have to come in, unbload, and get off the beach in very short order. The Italians had none of those skills and I seriousoly doubnt that much of their lift capacity was at all suited to the purpose, that is, fully capable of getting to the beach, unloading and then gettig off with any sort of efficiency. In my opinion, having now had the opportunity to study some of the beach conditions, I am actually doubtful that even the Allies, even at the height of their amphibious efficiency could undertake such a complicated and difficult operation without suffering horrendous casualties. And allied capability in amphibious operations was far more efficient than anythig the Italians were capable of before or since.
The Italians could and did have the lift capacity to move up to about 30000 men, but their ship to shore capability was very limited and inneffieicnt, and appears to not exceed about 1500 men. They could use boats, Gallipoli style, but this would place them at a severe disadvantage. The converted civilian craft they may have commandeered would, in my opinion be highly unlikely to be a recoverable asset. Use once and throw away basically, and in the narrow confines of the Malta beaches, not suitable. For an invasion to work, the beaches would have to remain clear and be under very tight beachmaster control. Ships would have to come in, unbload, and get off the beach in very short order. The Italians had none of those skills and I seriousoly doubnt that much of their lift capacity was at all suited to the purpose, that is, fully capable of getting to the beach, unloading and then gettig off with any sort of efficiency. In my opinion, having now had the opportunity to study some of the beach conditions, I am actually doubtful that even the Allies, even at the height of their amphibious efficiency could undertake such a complicated and difficult operation without suffering horrendous casualties. And allied capability in amphibious operations was far more efficient than anythig the Italians were capable of before or since.
DonL
Banned
This is not true!
Axis History Forum • Sesia class landing ships
Sesia-Klasse
And I'm tired to repeat this every time, stay to the facts and not some myths!
Axis History Forum • Sesia class landing ships
Sesia-Klasse
And I'm tired to repeat this every time, stay to the facts and not some myths!
- Thread starter
- #112
Shortround6
Major General
So according the "facts" the Italians have 5 (or 4 1/2) landing ships of which the big 4 can hold 1000 men each or a fewer number of men plus some light artillery or 3.2 ton tankettes. There may be some smaller craft in 1940 plus assorted fishing vessels and Navy motor launches, motor torpedo boats and ships boats.
Now another member has stated in a post "The Italian Navy, suppemented with a few Stormi of Italian bombers would have been able to land a couple of divisions on the island and that would have been the end of it."
It is a far cry from 3-5000men plus support equipment to "a couple of divisions" (TWO?). That is a "fact". even the under strength Italian Divisions were around 7,000 men each. That is a "fact"
In general it is considered advisable to have a 3 to 1 margin in strength for a "normal" attack. Amphibious invasion may require more?
The big 4 Italian ships had a draft of 0.5 meters at the bow which is quite commendable but a draft of around 4 meters at the stern, depending on loading and ballast tank. THAT is a "FACT".
Depending on which beach the Italians are try to land on do they have 4 meters of water 140-150 meters from the "beach" they are trying to land on? And that includes the 70 meter pontoon bridge they were equipped with in 1941, not 1940.
Even if the "landing ships" just pull 12-15 miles off shore to take on more men/equipment from larger ships, the 1940 Malta invasion advocates seem to discount the possibility of one or more of these ships being hit by shore batteries, getting stuck ( for at least one tide change) or hitting a rock. Just one of these ships out of action slows the transfer rate by around 20% depending on which ship.
About 4 landings per ship to get the "couple of Divisions" ashore taking how many hours?
Loss for landing ships in the D-Day invasion from June 6th to the 25th but NOT including ships/craft lost due to the storm from June 18th to 22nd were 4 LSTs lost and 4 damaged, 9 LCI (L) s lost and 4 damaged, LCT (4) 2 lost, 5 damaged. LCT (5) 14 lost, 13 damaged. LCT (6) 9 lost, 17 damaged. These may be US losses only, other losses include LCVPs, 26 on Utah Beach and 55 on Omaha Beach.
How much "reserve" shipping does the Italian Navy have to keep the forces supplied once they get a few thousand men ashore? A single 75mm Howitzer can go through several tons of ammo in one day.
Now another member has stated in a post "The Italian Navy, suppemented with a few Stormi of Italian bombers would have been able to land a couple of divisions on the island and that would have been the end of it."
It is a far cry from 3-5000men plus support equipment to "a couple of divisions" (TWO?). That is a "fact". even the under strength Italian Divisions were around 7,000 men each. That is a "fact"
In general it is considered advisable to have a 3 to 1 margin in strength for a "normal" attack. Amphibious invasion may require more?
The big 4 Italian ships had a draft of 0.5 meters at the bow which is quite commendable but a draft of around 4 meters at the stern, depending on loading and ballast tank. THAT is a "FACT".
Depending on which beach the Italians are try to land on do they have 4 meters of water 140-150 meters from the "beach" they are trying to land on? And that includes the 70 meter pontoon bridge they were equipped with in 1941, not 1940.
Even if the "landing ships" just pull 12-15 miles off shore to take on more men/equipment from larger ships, the 1940 Malta invasion advocates seem to discount the possibility of one or more of these ships being hit by shore batteries, getting stuck ( for at least one tide change) or hitting a rock. Just one of these ships out of action slows the transfer rate by around 20% depending on which ship.
About 4 landings per ship to get the "couple of Divisions" ashore taking how many hours?
Loss for landing ships in the D-Day invasion from June 6th to the 25th but NOT including ships/craft lost due to the storm from June 18th to 22nd were 4 LSTs lost and 4 damaged, 9 LCI (L) s lost and 4 damaged, LCT (4) 2 lost, 5 damaged. LCT (5) 14 lost, 13 damaged. LCT (6) 9 lost, 17 damaged. These may be US losses only, other losses include LCVPs, 26 on Utah Beach and 55 on Omaha Beach.
How much "reserve" shipping does the Italian Navy have to keep the forces supplied once they get a few thousand men ashore? A single 75mm Howitzer can go through several tons of ammo in one day.
parsifal
Colonel
Plus we are relying on the discussion of another forum. Since when did that become a "fact". i am relying on better sources than that. Plus the "fact" that the italians never attempted a major invasion for the whole of the war. that is a fact, and thre are good reasons to underpin it.
- Thread starter
- #114
Shortround6
Major General
German wiki entry:
Sesia-Klasse
The Ships are listed in old editions of Jane's ( at least in my 1942 copy) but true capabilities may be lacking.
I certainly do not deny the ships existed or that they were not clever and innovative ships. But 4-5 such ships are simply too few to base an invasion of several divisions on. To go back to my fruit analogy it is like trying to use 4 very short step ladders for several dozen fruit pickers and trees that have top branches out of reach even standing on the top step.
Sesia-Klasse
The Ships are listed in old editions of Jane's ( at least in my 1942 copy) but true capabilities may be lacking.
I certainly do not deny the ships existed or that they were not clever and innovative ships. But 4-5 such ships are simply too few to base an invasion of several divisions on. To go back to my fruit analogy it is like trying to use 4 very short step ladders for several dozen fruit pickers and trees that have top branches out of reach even standing on the top step.
