Marines Pose with Nazi SS Flag?
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evangilder
"Shooter"
I am very close to putting the lock on this thread.
What do you think our friends and allies in Israel think of this, Michael? It's not about whether or not it is offensive, it is the fact that people that already may have a skewed perception of Americans/American soldiers now have even worse fodder. That symbol represented hatred and intolerance. That is NOT a symbol I want troops that are defending our freedoms using.
What do you think our friends and allies in Israel think of this, Michael? It's not about whether or not it is offensive, it is the fact that people that already may have a skewed perception of Americans/American soldiers now have even worse fodder. That symbol represented hatred and intolerance. That is NOT a symbol I want troops that are defending our freedoms using.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
IMHO much ado about nothing. It's nothing more then a symbol whose only power comes from what people bestow upon it.
So it's okay for our Princes to attend fancy dress parties wearing a swastika arm band?
These symbols are only acceptable in an educational context, they represent elitism,superiority,facism,nazism and mass murder. Wearing an arm band,as Prince Harry stupidly,did insults the memory all the victims of Nazism.
The grandfathers of these men fought and died to provide the freedom and liberty that they now abuse.
It's not big and it's not clever. At best it is stupid,at worst.....
If that runic symbol has been an emblem of that unit,unchallenged for twenty years,then the US military has a bigger problem than I thought.
Steve
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... What do you think our friends and allies in Israel think of this, Michael?"
Well, they were content to use ME-109's in their war of independence. And they use state of the art German subs. And are masters of strategy and marketing .... so I wouldn't worry too much about Israeli sensitivities .... as long as US foreign policy supports Israel
No Stona it's NOT alright. Prince Harry is in a position of extreme privilege. He's not serving in a combat zone. (and living people remember that his Great Grand Dad's brother flirted with Nazism).
"... That symbol represented hatred and intolerance. That is NOT a symbol I want troops that are defending our freedoms using.''
Well, they were content to use ME-109's in their war of independence. And they use state of the art German subs. And are masters of strategy and marketing .... so I wouldn't worry too much about Israeli sensitivities .... as long as US foreign policy supports Israel
No Stona it's NOT alright. Prince Harry is in a position of extreme privilege. He's not serving in a combat zone. (and living people remember that his Great Grand Dad's brother flirted with Nazism).
"... That symbol represented hatred and intolerance. That is NOT a symbol I want troops that are defending our freedoms using.''
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evangilder
"Shooter"
Using Me-109s and German equipment are WAY different from using symbols that represented the SS. I have several relatives that fought in WWII and they cringed when they saw that photo. Some of my wife's family were wiped out by the ones who wore that symbol 70 years ago. Not only did they disappear, but there is nothing left, no photos, no records, nothing.
You can call it a "symbol" that means nothing, or pass it off as people being too sensitive if you wish, but this is something that hits some people very hard.
Posting a rebel flag doesn't hold a candle to the systematic mass murder of millions of people. Did it represent hatred? Yes, and oppression. Do I support that flag? No I don't. What exactly was your point with that?
You can call it a "symbol" that means nothing, or pass it off as people being too sensitive if you wish, but this is something that hits some people very hard.
Posting a rebel flag doesn't hold a candle to the systematic mass murder of millions of people. Did it represent hatred? Yes, and oppression. Do I support that flag? No I don't. What exactly was your point with that?
Here is my take. Yes it is a symbol, but the symbol stands for something. A military unit today should not use this symbol because of what it stood for.
I am an avid 3rd Reich collector. I have dozens upon dozens of swastikas and SS runes in my collection, but I only display them as a collection and nothing else. I hope to have a museum some day...
That is far different than displaying it as a unit symbol or something like that.
I am an avid 3rd Reich collector. I have dozens upon dozens of swastikas and SS runes in my collection, but I only display them as a collection and nothing else. I hope to have a museum some day...
That is far different than displaying it as a unit symbol or something like that.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
What is my point .....?
"..... cringed when they saw that photo".
Did your relatives cringe at the symbol ...? or cringe at the stupidity of the guys that used it in the USMC ....?
Cause and effect. It's important to make sure you identify the right "cause" when you detect an "effect" ... otherwise you're working in the dark.
No one - and I mean no one - other than neo-nazis-shaved-heads would actively chose the swastika or the double thunderbolt today. Those marines were dumb .... dumb, dumb, dumb. So were the clowns guarding Abu Greb prison. **** HAPPENS.
But in the end ACTIONS speak louder than words (or symbols).
I am told (and I hope one of our Finnish friends will confirm/deny) that during the Finnish War of Continuation against the Soviets, several Finnish soldiers were awarded The Iron Cross by their German co-combattant allies. Some of the Finns were Jewish. The Germans knew that when the awards were proffered. The Jewish candidates declined the award - but kept on fighting. Actions speak louder than words.
My point? Life is ironic .... war even more so.
(Later, the Finns were forced by the Soviets to clear out the Germans from the north as a condition of their negotiated 'peace')
MM
"..... cringed when they saw that photo".
Did your relatives cringe at the symbol ...? or cringe at the stupidity of the guys that used it in the USMC ....?
Cause and effect. It's important to make sure you identify the right "cause" when you detect an "effect" ... otherwise you're working in the dark.
No one - and I mean no one - other than neo-nazis-shaved-heads would actively chose the swastika or the double thunderbolt today. Those marines were dumb .... dumb, dumb, dumb. So were the clowns guarding Abu Greb prison. **** HAPPENS.
But in the end ACTIONS speak louder than words (or symbols).
I am told (and I hope one of our Finnish friends will confirm/deny) that during the Finnish War of Continuation against the Soviets, several Finnish soldiers were awarded The Iron Cross by their German co-combattant allies. Some of the Finns were Jewish. The Germans knew that when the awards were proffered. The Jewish candidates declined the award - but kept on fighting. Actions speak louder than words.
My point? Life is ironic .... war even more so.
(Later, the Finns were forced by the Soviets to clear out the Germans from the north as a condition of their negotiated 'peace'
)MM
evangilder
"Shooter"
They cringed that a symbol like that was being used by ANY US unit. Not at the stupidity of it (which it is stupid), but the fact that they were using it and claiming ignorance of the symbol. One cousin called BS on that, by the way.
One thing that some may not have thought about is that our enemies could use that for propaganda. An American flag with an SS flag directly below it with proud troops standing with their weapons. People that are not in support of our troops will also see this as additional ammo.
One thing that some may not have thought about is that our enemies could use that for propaganda. An American flag with an SS flag directly below it with proud troops standing with their weapons. People that are not in support of our troops will also see this as additional ammo.
I am an avid 3rd Reich collector. I have dozens upon dozens of swastikas and SS runes in my collection, but I only display them as a collection and nothing else. I hope to have a museum some day...
Which is fine,noone is trying to deny history. It's all about context. Education,education and then some more education is a good thing and surely the purpose of your putative museum.
Western troops in the Islamic world are all too often portrayed as occupiers,oppressors,torturers and ,thanks to idiotic comments by a certain former President,crusaders.
This sort of image is not going to help much.
Steve
mikewint
Captain
Michael, how can you not see the POWER in a symbol, it is all around us. Our flags are SYMBOLS many many men have died for those symbols, the Cross is a symbol as is the Star of David how many millions have died for both. Words are also symbols think of the power of the N***** word. I agree that symbols have no intrinsic power of their own, only the power we give them but symbols reach past he thinking brain down to a viseral level. Name calling is a prime example. Depending on the name chosen you can get a mouth full of fist. Think of how FBJ and others on this forum are reacting to the fake Navy officer. That uniform and medals are symbols and people are reacting to them on a viseral level
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Hmmm... this thread has turned argumental.
Strangely though not the argument I expected.
Strangely though not the argument I expected.
mikewint
Captain
Curious, Max, what were you expecting? We only have a pic and pics are subject to interpretation. Did those marines really not know what the SS was/stood for or was it all just a dumb error?
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... Michael, how can you not see the POWER in a symbol, it is all around us."
No doubt. Symbols speak loudly. But they have no power in and of themselves. The POWER only arrives when human will is harnessed to - connected with - the particular SYMBOL. Those Marines in Iraq were dumb - actually I don't mean that - I mean their leadership failed them.
Were they acting like Waffen SS ...? I don't know, I wasn't there. But - if they were behaving like that then, to locals, the lasting symbol would be Old Glory - not the double thunderbolt. For the theatre of operations, the double bolt actually may have had a positive effect - Arabs generally admire the Germans, Hitler, and all things German-made. I've talked to Mercedes LD truck drivers in Saudi and Jordan and they would point to the Mercedes 'star' on the gill and say "strong, like Hitler".
Actions speak louder than words (or symbols). How did these Marines conduct themselves? were they effective? ... that is the important question.
MM
No doubt. Symbols speak loudly. But they have no power in and of themselves. The POWER only arrives when human will is harnessed to - connected with - the particular SYMBOL. Those Marines in Iraq were dumb - actually I don't mean that - I mean their leadership failed them.
Were they acting like Waffen SS ...? I don't know, I wasn't there. But - if they were behaving like that then, to locals, the lasting symbol would be Old Glory - not the double thunderbolt. For the theatre of operations, the double bolt actually may have had a positive effect - Arabs generally admire the Germans, Hitler, and all things German-made
. I've talked to Mercedes LD truck drivers in Saudi and Jordan and they would point to the Mercedes 'star' on the gill and say "strong, like Hitler".Actions speak louder than words (or symbols). How did these Marines conduct themselves? were they effective? ... that is the important question.
MM
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So if they were effective, they can wear armbands and jackboots too?
When I was in the Army, I would not think about adopting any of the symbols of the enemies my dad and uncles fought against. No matter how "effective" I thought I was. To me that would be disrespectful of their sacrifice.
When I was in the Army, I would not think about adopting any of the symbols of the enemies my dad and uncles fought against. No matter how "effective" I thought I was. To me that would be disrespectful of their sacrifice.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
You gottme, tyrotom. . What can I say .... "To me that would be disrespectful of their sacrifice."
I doubt any one involved knowingly elected to be disrespectful of their service - someone involved thinks the double thunder is cool, edgy, goth .... whatever. And everybody went along with the idea ..... Sad. Misguided. Means nothing.
"... So if they were effective, they can wear armbands and jackboots too? "
Jackboots - sure, if they're comfortable
Armbands - maybe - depends what's on them ...?
MM
. What can I say .... "To me that would be disrespectful of their sacrifice."I doubt any one involved knowingly elected to be disrespectful of their service - someone involved thinks the double thunder is cool, edgy, goth .... whatever. And everybody went along with the idea ..... Sad. Misguided. Means nothing.
"... So if they were effective, they can wear armbands and jackboots too? "
Jackboots - sure, if they're comfortable
Armbands - maybe - depends what's on them ...?
MM
My dad, and 2 of my uncles were in the WW2 Marines. I can make a good guess what they'd say if they were still alive. " We whip their ass, and now you #$%&s fly their flag!!!"
Of course, they all fought in the Pacific, one died there.
Of course, they all fought in the Pacific, one died there.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... Of course, they all fought in the Pacific..."
With respect to the deceased and the living, in the Pacific theatre there were 'outrages' about ear and gold tooth collection .... to me, in a war, that kind of thing happens. Punish it. Move on.
MM
With respect to the deceased and the living, in the Pacific theatre there were 'outrages' about ear and gold tooth collection .... to me, in a war, that kind of thing happens. Punish it. Move on.
MM
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