MINIATURE AIRCRAFT MUSEUM

I've been prompted by a post made recently by Keith (Ellis), which reminded me of a question asked of me by my 15 year old daughter a couple of weeks ago. She is learning a little more about World War 2 in her History classes at school, and asked me about the numbers of aircraft in a R.A.F. Squadron, and also what some certain types of aircraft looked like. After spending an hour or so showing her various pictures in books, and describing how R.A.F. Squadrons were constructed etc, she then asked me to show her, as a comparison, some aircraft models in the same scale, so that she could get an idea of size and shape and so on.
I thought this was brilliant, as she was really interested, and the last time I had the opportunity to tell her about aircraft was when she was about 10, again for a school project.
(Bear in mind, she has, more or less, 'grown up' with aircraft, and Dad's modelling and painting of them, even though we live apart. Therefore, she has a slight advantage over her school peers.)
Keith made a comment in his recent post about the models built for the Defence of the Reich Group Build, and how he thought they should be in a museum, for all to see, particularly younger people.
Well, having spent the time with my daughter, and having considered Keith's observation, I think he is right. One of the things my daughter pointed out was that, having already trawled the Internet for information, although she'd been able to see pictures of some of the aircraft concerned, both period and present-day shots, she hadn't been able to find anywhere that displayed the various types together, in an easily 'visible' way. Of course, she'd visited museum web-sites, but wasn't able to see, for example, a Spitfire and Messerschmitt side by side, with references from which to gain comparisons Obviously, due to the (relative) confines of museums, it is not realistically possible to photograph the displayed aircraft to satisfy this requirement.
This got my mind working, and an idea began to form about a 'virtual' museum, in miniature, where aircraft from World War 2, and possibly from earlier and later periods, could be displayed individually, at various angles, and in matched pairs and groups, possibly with some form of 'line up' whereby the size and bulk could be compared. For example, a B17 flanked by a P51 and FW190, or a line of fighters, from opposing forces, representing a particular period/action/theatre of WW2.
it strikes me that this forum would be an ideal location for such a 'Museum in Miniature', where members' existing models could be utilised, and further examples provided.
I realise that to design and operate such a facility would be relatively complex and, of course, time consuming. But, it could be something that could grow with time, and develope in the form and manner of its presentation. I visualise this as an entirely separate, and permanent section within the forum, and I truly believe that, given it was available, would be of real benefit to all, paritcularly younger people, and certainly visitors, and researchers, using this excellent forum.
So, what's your opinions on both the idea, and its viability?

I'm admittedly a bit of a slow burner so for clarification are you suggesting a pictorial museum of sorts from contributing builders or a collection of miniatures physically donated by builders to a particular individual to maintain and show physically and virtually (internet) to interested parties? Whichever makes the most sense logistically is to be sorted out but I think it is a superb idea. I'm involved in a quarter scale project at the moment but I'd surely participate in such a project.

For 4 years running I was asked by a elementary school to introduce 4th grade students to aviation. I would take an RC 1/4 scale to school - usually a Spitfire Mk 14 I helped build for a friend - and together I would explain the workings of the aircraft while he operated the radio in coordination with the explanation. It was a big hit. I'm all for this sort of thing.

If this is possible Terry I think its magnificant -seeing the size difference of say a Hawker Typhoon to others has always amazed me

Sorry I got no idea on its viability cause when its comes to computers I'm useless ,although I have been on a few CAD courses (still useless) I'd like to hear what Marcel and Chris think

I'm a bit like you in that respect Daniel! Having said that, having had some experience in (photographic) audio-visual production, the basis of the systems are similar, and I would think that, technically, it shouldn't be too difficult to achieve. Of course, my idea needs a fuller, more detailed explanation, and those that 'know' about computers, and their programme requirements, would, I'm sure, be able to advise on what is, and what isn't, practical, given whatever restrictions might be involved in regards presentation on the forum.
Sorry Joe, I meant presenting the models in photographic form, on the forum. I see this as a sort of 'library' of perhaps many images, both of individual aircraft, and groups of aircraft, and shots at various angles. Some would need to include a recognisable object for reference, in order to give some idea of physical size of each aircraft displayed, and a suitable 'pilot' or 'ground crew' figure would probably suffice for this. It may be that images of actual aircraft, or at least areas of interest, such as armament or cockpits could be combined with the 'model' pictures, in order to provide a more detailed coverage.
I accept that there would be a fair amount of work involved in assembling and presenting the images, and therefore it would be easier at first to have individual shots of each type in the 'catalogue', which could be added to as more models were produced and photographed. It would possibly be more convenient for the viewer if there were 'slide show' groups, to illustrate, for example, specific types, periods or theatres, and these 'slide shows' should be programmable, in as much as they could run as a 'show', with the facility to 'freeze frame' in order that individual types could be viewed at leisure.
The obvious question that will arise is 'Who is providing the models for the photography?'
Well, I would certainly be willing to photograph mine, and build and photograph some specifically for this project, if it should happen, and I think that there will be other modellers on the forum who would do the same.
Anyway, it's nice to see that there has been a rapid, and interested response. I look forward to further comments from more members.

Hey Terry, we were kind of covering the same subject over in the IL-2 Pilot's lounge in Binjo's thread:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/il-2-sturmovik-pilots-lounge/matter-perspective-18301.html

It would be cool to put together something for those that are new to early aviation, so they might have an idea of the machines involved.

As far as CAD drawings, I believe Clave uses CAD for most of his fantastic artwork that he does. If you want in incorporate anything on that level, I would suggest contacting him for pointers or suggestions.

Hmm, this could work. In fact, if we could get our hands on a URL (we might be able to just use the ww2aircraft.net URL and add a new directory such as ww2aircraft.net/museum), it'd be "easy". Once all of the pictures were gathered, we could make a Flash site for it as we could do walk-arounds of a sort. They wouldn't be animations of course, and it would be more of a slideshow, like Terry mentioned, but it wouldn't be that difficult. The issue with trying to do animations is that we're not going to have consistent enough angles of pictures and we'd literally need about 20 pictures AT LEAST for each plane, just for horizontal movement! Can you say Holy File Size Batman? Personally, I have enough enough experience in Flash to pull it off (barely), but ideally we'd set up a template and have a few people working on it at once, because for one person to do it would be massively, well, massive and just a huge amount of work.

But a slideshow site is very possible. We could do something in regards to angles as we have the GB's set up, as well as have one on top and bottom perhaps.

Sounds interesting, would like to see where this goes....

Agreed!

Glad there's an interest. As Cory points out, it will take some effort, and time, but the idea needs to be developed further before anything is even partially attempted.
Let's see what further comments and suggestions are forwarded. Meanwhile, I'll work on some ideas and sketches for possible presentation etc, although this will also take time.
Could be a good thing to have going.

I just found this thread now Terry, great idea! I'd be interested in helping out, I've got a fair few WW2 fighters built. I could take some shots of them. I'd have no problems building some specifically for the site either.

Comparison shots of a WW2 fighter beside a modern fighter would be cool too. 8)

Yep, I agree with that last point Keith. It would be my idea to present a form of 'Where did we go from here', and show other models of aircraft that succeeded,as an example, the Mustang, coming more or less up to date with, say an F16.
So, theer may be a gallery on the Mustang, then individul pictures under the same grouping of, for example, the Sabre, Super Sabre, Phantom, F16 and so on, with some selections of the Mustang alongside each. This would not only show comparative size, but also the developments of shape, aerodynamics etc.
I don't know about others here, but when I see, for example, a Mustang by itself, either in picture, model or 'for real', it looks fine - modern, recognisable, technologically advanced and so on. But, put the Mustang alongside say, a Phantom, and suddenly things look very different! Not only does the Mustang look antique, it also looks small, relatively frail, and not as powerful as it actually was, if you understand what I mean. Then a similar thing happens with the F16 alongside the Phantom, and so on.
I'm glad to see that this post has 'popped up' again, and hopefully, over the months (or years!), something can be formulated to allow the idea to be launched as an on-going project.

Well, Im alittle confused, and that dont happen often.... I understand the comparison pics, and GrauGeist showed a perfect example from the IL2 game... I also get the comparison of WW2 to Modern Jets as Terry put it....

I cant seem to grasp how u could compare relative size with many different pics from many Members, single plane pics.....

Thats neither here nor there, as I like the whole idea.... I will start a thread in the Modeling Section and stick it, just to get us started and get the creative juices flowing... I have some recent shots of my models in comparison that might be a viable refrence....

Lets see what we can lay down as a backbone... I'll title the thread Comparative Aircraft Size Dimensions...

That's a good idea Dan, and a good start.
I'll provide some 'side by side' shots of comparative models, although they'll be just 'plain' for now (pun not intended!), and not as I visualise them for the 'museum' project. If, or when such a project gets under way, it should be possible to 'splice' two different pics together if neccessary, to show compatisons, although original photography would be better.

Wow... unless this is done via PC, someone is going to have to have some real photog experience in focal planes, distances and lens magnification. Sounds too complicated to achieve, but I'll sit back and enjoy being proven wrong. Again.

Your right Matt, to do this justice, the photography needs to be spot on. As far as any efforts on my part are concerned, this shouldn't be a problem, although for some of the work, it would be better if I used my 35mm SLR equipment, even though that means film processing, scanning etc. But it will provide more control and versatility. However, most of the 'general' shots i can do with my digital 'hybrid' SLR.
The biggest job for the whole project will be assembling a decent collection in constant, and accurate scale, which will need to be very well produced and finished models. The actual scales are not that important, as long as any pics of more than one type together are the same scale of course. But, it is better to employ a large, or intermediate scale, the former being 1/32nd (or 1/24th) whilst the latter would be 1/48th, in order to allow a more authentic appearance on the smaller types, such as fighters, paricularly in areas such as canopies, guns, antennas etc. Bombers and similar - sized types would be fine in 1/72nd of course.
Whichever way it's done, it's going to take a lot of time and effort, and some work on post - production too!

I've been trying to figure out the "comparative" aspect of this museum project. A thread of succeeding photographs of models with the purpose of showing each model and giving its specific size information as contrasted to another model's specifics is simple enough when they are illustrated adjacent to each other. One picture tells that story. But, when all the various types and scales must be photo-documented it can become burdensome.

One idea that comes to mind is the slideshow. This would necessitate imposing photographic guidelines on the submitters regarding angles (as with the GB guidelines) with background colors and lighting suggestions added. One additional aspect would be a linear scale laid down and visible in the photographs incremented in scale feet or centimeters to get an idea of actual span and length of the full sized aircraft. Height would not be an essential dimension to represent photographically but could be captioned. The notion of photographing models adjacent to each other for comparisons seems impractical considering sheer numbers and various scales.

Another method might be a dual-window (side-by-side) thread-starter each with a drop-down menu for selecting aircraft from differing scales. Selecting a Spitfire in the left window and a P-47 in the right would be kind of cool. Once the aircraft have been selected another button cueing a slide-show of similar views of each aircraft in its respective window would be the shite. Selecting a fighter to contrast against a 4-engine type would be difficult with regard to showing relative sizes of each so it may become difficult to get a dual-window true representation of that aspect. I'm just thinking in print here. I have zero computer skills and am simply recollecting various features I've experienced as a peruser.

Some good points there Joe. Some of the ideas I've possibly broached upon briefly, but I too am somewhat naive when it comes to computer imaging and the possibilities and/or limitations. I am, however, well versed in (photographic) audio - visual production, so hopefully I'll be able to understand some of the terms, and the requirements, if put across in 'simple, basic' form.
Although I agree with you that some side by side comparisons would not be feasible, or at best somewhat cumbersome, there are certain possibilities, and I think I need to put together an illustrated example of the type of thing I had in mind for at least part of this project. The key is the word 'Museum'; my thinking on this is that the presentations would literally be a virtual museum, with the images presented as if viewing the real thing from a gallery, and at normal eye-level also. Keeping this in mind, it should be possibel to produce at least the basic 'collection' in photographs, just as if the models were the exhibits in a 1:1 museum, and then construct modules which can be selected to view, for example, a 'walk around' of individual types, with a 'menu' page or drop-down list displaying the data relevant to the type being viewed.
But, as I mentioned previously, it will take a lot of thought, and even more work, but should be able to be modified, improved and enhanced as the project progresses.

Well hopefully I can contribute. Today my half finished p61 was sitting next to my cruddy 1/48 B25 Mitch and suprisingly the widow was a wee bit larger. Didn't know that!

Just a thought, but does anyone ever remember the Lobby and/or Museum from the combat sim "Jane's WWII Fighters"?

If not, I'll see if I can find a video of it. The museum hangar was interactive, you click the Kiosk in front of each aircraft (fighters that were available in the sim) and the viewer would get a brief commentary about the aircraft's engine(s), armament, performance or a breif overview of the aircraft's general information, depending on the viewer's selection. The setting was like being in a hangar, and there were other artifacts in the area that both added atmosphere and a good perspective to the aircraft's scale.

I'll post an overhead screenshot of the museum. This should give everyone an idea of what I'm referring to. You'll notice the yellow kiosks in front of each aircraft, hose are the info kiosks that offer the viewer information for that particular machine.

I'll post the main entrance info area too...that had kiosks that allowed the visitor to get an overveiw of the ground equipment, areas of battles during the winter of 1944-45, etc.

Perhaps something like this might work?