The Germans awarded points for shot down a/c. Luftwaffe Score System This was in addition to actual scores of a/c shot down.
Mosquito versus the German fighters
- Thread starter helmitsmit
- Start date
The Germans awarded points for shot down a/c. Luftwaffe Score System This was in addition to actual scores of a/c shot down.
Exactly, and points were given for the number of engines. A kill for a Mossie was 2 points, not because it was a Mossie, but because it had two engines.
A shotdown Mossie would be 1 Kill, 2 Points.
GregP
Major
The Mosquito has it's share of bad characteristics. One of them is Vmc - minimum controllable airspeed for a twin. The Mosquito has a Vmc on the order of 135 knots (155 mph!). You take off at something like 100 - 105 knots. So there is a considerable amount of time accelerating when, if anything untoward happens to the engines or props, you are landing straight ahead or just dead.
It also has bad spin characteristics - a trait shared with many twins having heavy outboard engines, but not to the same degree. The vertical fin is not exactly flush with area to stop a spin or even a swing on takeoff or landing. You wouldn't normally think of spinning as a requirement for the type, but the ability to recover from one would have been VERY nice.
These factors do not mean it was less than a great airplane. No aircraft is best at everything. The Mosquito was pretty good or very good at many things, even if not the absolute best. The combination of performance made it a genuine surprise weapon, and that can never be changed.
I've read the Bf 110 was a delightful aircraft to fly at low to medium speeds, and only got to be a bit stiff at high speeds. It had many good or great characteristics. But it was no Mosquito. The Mosquito F.II maxed out at about 365 mph at all-up weight of 18,530 lbs. The Bf 110 maxed out at about 345 - 360 mph, and it would seem a good match. But the Bf 110 couldn't CRUISE nearly as fast. The Mosquito best-range was about 170 mph below 10,000 feet ... but it could cruise much faster if need be. The Bf 110 was not a fast cruiser. Both were about 20,000 pound max takeoff or slightly more, depending on variant.
I've always wondered how the mosquito might have handled with twin fins and rudders along the lines of the de Havilland Albatross. Maybe better, maybe not. I also think a scaled-down, single-engine version might have been a success. Again, maybe not. I'm glad de Havilland had the company nerve to design and proceed with a bomber that was never ordered to be designed with a specification requirement by the RAF and to do it out of a non-strategic material. Sure is a pretty plane, isn't it? So is my personal favorite DH aircraft, the Hornet.
It also has bad spin characteristics - a trait shared with many twins having heavy outboard engines, but not to the same degree. The vertical fin is not exactly flush with area to stop a spin or even a swing on takeoff or landing. You wouldn't normally think of spinning as a requirement for the type, but the ability to recover from one would have been VERY nice.
These factors do not mean it was less than a great airplane. No aircraft is best at everything. The Mosquito was pretty good or very good at many things, even if not the absolute best. The combination of performance made it a genuine surprise weapon, and that can never be changed.
I've read the Bf 110 was a delightful aircraft to fly at low to medium speeds, and only got to be a bit stiff at high speeds. It had many good or great characteristics. But it was no Mosquito. The Mosquito F.II maxed out at about 365 mph at all-up weight of 18,530 lbs. The Bf 110 maxed out at about 345 - 360 mph, and it would seem a good match. But the Bf 110 couldn't CRUISE nearly as fast. The Mosquito best-range was about 170 mph below 10,000 feet ... but it could cruise much faster if need be. The Bf 110 was not a fast cruiser. Both were about 20,000 pound max takeoff or slightly more, depending on variant.
I've always wondered how the mosquito might have handled with twin fins and rudders along the lines of the de Havilland Albatross. Maybe better, maybe not. I also think a scaled-down, single-engine version might have been a success. Again, maybe not. I'm glad de Havilland had the company nerve to design and proceed with a bomber that was never ordered to be designed with a specification requirement by the RAF and to do it out of a non-strategic material. Sure is a pretty plane, isn't it? So is my personal favorite DH aircraft, the Hornet.
IIRC there were plains to make a 'Super Mosquito', powered by two Sabre engines. A bigger fast bomber.
Hornet was on par with F8F, and then some.
wuzak
Captain
There was an alternate plan for a larger Mosquito with Griffon engines as well, but it was thought its performance would be no better than the Mosquito's.
There was also a proposal for a jet Mosquito with, IIRC, two Halford H.Is (later to become de Havilland Goblin).
The Sabre was quite heavier than the Griffon, right?
Why would the performance with Griffon not be better?
Sorry I meant F7F.
Glider
Major
I think a more sensible option would be to install the Merlin 130 with 2000hp as used in the Hornet.
wuzak
Captain
Yes, by about 200kg/450lb.
Was also more powerful.
Because the proposal was for a larger and heavier aircraft than the Mosquito.
EDIT: The Griffon itself was around 400lb heavier than the 2 stage Merlin. Installing Griffons in the Mosquito may have been possible, but detrimental to its load carrying capability.
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wuzak
Captain
Would have been too late for the war.
The PR.34 and NF.36 got the Merlin 113 and 114, which was similar to the 130, but with updraft carburettors and a lower rating (~1,700hp).
Probably detrimental all around, it would need more fuel or have less range and have been even worse on one engine for performance. Maybe if you dial everything back and have Griffons available in 1939/40 something could have been done, but even then I am not really sure.
wuzak
Captain
You should have more power (2 stage Griffons more powerful than 2 stage Merlins) and more lifting ability, at the cost of lower load carrying (unless the airframe is capable of taking a higher auw, the maximum for the Mosquito seems to have been ~ 25,000lb) and less range, as you state.
going back a bit to the Bf109 vs. mosquito, didn't Heinz Knoke get a mosquito in a tail chase? if I recall he about wrecked the engine in his 109 as the only way to close on the mosquito was to close radiator flaps, and use emergency boost just to get in range, Knokes wingman was completely outclassed and fell behind quickly. I suspect Knokes aircraft was a "G" model with the water/methanol injection, but I don't recall all the details.
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
Well, there are these sorts of documents, although this combat ends rather differently than the previous anecdote.
There is some debate if the a/c was a Mossie. Iirc the weather wasn't the greatest and no Mossies in the area of the claim at the time.
Entering enemy airspace a Mosquito had the capacity to cruise to a different area of the sky before interception. When introduced it was faster than the Spitfire on the same engine, however as the war went on German planes even propeller driven were faster, the issue was by how much. If a Mosquito pilot spotted an interceptor 10,000 ft below the interceptor has to climb 10,000ft and match its speed to catch him. Vectoring a plane to within visual range was the issue for intercepting high altitude recon Mosquitos, I don't think a Griffon engine adds to the package, it burns more fuel from take off to landing and with recon versions the payload was fuel.
wuzak
Captain
It also depended on the altitude.
There remained small bands of altitudes where the Mosquito was faster.
There remained small bands of altitudes where the Mosquito was faster.
I was speaking in most general terms, the Me262 was faster at all altitudes but it was still possible for a Mosquito to get away.
FalkeEins
Senior Airman
..ten years since Erich told us 'wait for his book!' ( there's no book...) German author Andreas Zapf has published his " Mosquitos over Berlin " (book is German text " Mosquitos über Berlin. Nachtjagd mit der Messerschmitt Bf 109 und Me 262 " )
- a first look and a chat with the author about Me 262 night fighters, Kurt Welter, and Mosquito hunting on my blog here
FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: "Mosquitos over Berlin" - a chat with Andreas Zapf; Moskitojagd, Kurt Welter and Me 262 jet night fighters
- a first look and a chat with the author about Me 262 night fighters, Kurt Welter, and Mosquito hunting on my blog here
FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: "Mosquitos over Berlin" - a chat with Andreas Zapf; Moskitojagd, Kurt Welter and Me 262 jet night fighters
