Mosquito vs The Rest

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Flyboy is right about longevity. It takes a lot longer for aluminium to corrode than for wood to rot/go bad.

Do you think that WW2 aircraft were designed for longevity? I wouldn't have thought so.

Corrosion isn't the only factor - there is also fatigue.


A number of aircraft have used steel spars. Steel is much heavier than aluminium. BUT if the loads you expect to have to deal with are large enough, and since steel IS stronger than aluminium ( in general, there are a lot of alloys of both) a steel part MAY provide more strength than an EQUIVALENT WEIGHT aluminium part. Same for wood depending on the loads involved, the size of the parts, and the type of wood.

Depending on grades, steel and aluminium hav much the same tensile strength to weight ratio. That means that for pure tensile loading steel and aluminium members that take a certain load will weight the same. But the aluminium section will be bigger than the steel one.
 
Wood has limitations and the limitations get bigger the bigger the airplane becomes. But I believe that only aeronautical structural engineers who are familiar with wood ( in it's various forms/glues/resins) could really tell us if the Mosquito had exceeded the size/stress regime where wood was inferior to metal. From an empirical stand point it doesn't seem so but perhaps it was 50-200lbs over weight compared to metal, or more.

Which is more evidence, if it is needed that de Havilland really got their sums right with the Mosquito. I've never worked on wooden structures, being of the tin bashing generation (although I don't do much of that these days), but I used to work with plane wrights, guys who used to work on Avro Ansons and de Havilland Vampires post war, both of which had wooden structurual elements. These guys were pretty clever and I was surprised to learn that wooden strutures was still being taught and applied in the RAF for some time post war. The Anson was around until 1968 (I think) as a transport.
 
Do you think that WW2 aircraft were designed for longevity? I wouldn't have thought so.
For example in Germany something as simple as paint, RLM lacquers that reached basic approval stage were then tested for tensile strength and fade qualities after 6 month exposure to weather and sunlight, and had to meet a minimum requirement of 2 year life span in open air conditions or 1500 flying hours. 5 years being set as realistic maximum. Paint care products were used, and a single application had to last for 100 takeoffs or 2 months of bad weather operations. The end results was a very high quality finish. The rest of the aircraft had to meet greater standards. So yes, in this case, longevity is the case. Whether it lived long enough though....
 
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Do you think that WW2 aircraft were designed for longevity? I wouldn't have thought so.
I once read somewhere that statistically a WW2 combat aircraft airframe had a life expectancy of something like 250 hours. With that said there was an element of longevity especially when considering operating environments. When the Mossie was on the drawing board, I bet there was little consideration given to operating environments and field maintenance in climates different from Europe. Factor this in with some other negative factors concerning wood construction and that's why wood construction in combat aircraft quickly faded after WW2.
Corrosion isn't the only factor - there is also fatigue.
Unless the airframe is really getting abused or there was a design flaw, you're not going to have fatigue as a major factor in aircraft with under 500 hours.

. De Havilland made it work, but not in competition with metal, but to suppliment it. The Mosquito proved that with careful engineering the use of a predominantly wooden structure could survive successfully in a world of all metal structures.

Sums it up right there!!!
 
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We should possibly stop calling the Mossie a wooden plane and start calling it a composite plane.

A list of ingredients

Hard woods, Balsa and Mahogany
Soft woods, Spruce, Fir
Glues, originally Cascemite resin made of Casine which is extracted from milk, later Urea Formaldehyde resin. Plus whatever was used to glue the Plywood laminates.
Sheathing, Egyptian Cotton and dope made from Nitro cellulose or acetate not sure what the RAF used possibly both.
Metals, Brass, Phosphour Bronze, Aluminium, Steel.
 
Also for other wooden aircrafts of the time were used different types of plywood, wood, nails, screws, glues, and fabric coverings. The Encyclopedia Britannica define plywood itself as composite wood. The definition "wooden aircraft" is convenient, since it tells what's the basic material of the composite.
 
Wood is difficult to repair and maintain in the field as larger repairs have to be done under controlled environments.

I don't believe one could make an accurate comparison for construction time when comparing the Mossie to a metal aircraft - in the end, metal planes were the way to go as advances were made in aviation. Although some homebuilders still make wood airplanes, in the end metal airplanes were the way to go in the post war years - until composites came along.

Almost 35 years in aircraft maintenance, IMO flat out, wood sucks! :mad:

Does any of this actually matter? - fact is that the Mosquito was highly successful and thousands were operated successfully by air forces that were far more familiar with all metal structures, often in highly adverse conditions; that should say something about the design qualities of the Mosquito and the qualities of those who had to service and maintain the aircraft in the field 70 odd years ago.
 
Nice work on the list Mark! Thanks also for posting the 333 Squadron Combat Report.

The most recent Mossie fighter kill I have come across was the following: 16.12.43 FW 190A-2 5495 12./J.G.5 Uffz. Willi Sürth Killed W of Gossen a/f shot down by Mosquito VI HP862/O from No. 333 Sq. B-Flight. Pilot: P/O Andreas H. Wyller, navigator kvm. Baard K. Benjaminsen.
And there of course the Biscaya actions against the Ju 88 fighters from V/KG 40 / ZG 1.

Juha

Fwiw here's a couple of Mossie kills of Fw 190s that I've come across in my research recently:

W/Cdr. J. Cunningham, D.S.O. Bar, D.F.C. Bar, 85 Squadron, 23/24th August, 1943
W/Cdr. J. Cunningham, D.S.O. Bar, D.F.C. Bar, 85 Squadron, 8/9th September, 1943
F/L N. Head, 96 Squadron, 2nd/3rd January, 1944
F/L N. Head, 96 Squadron, 22/23rd March, 1944 (I've posted this one here before.)
S/L C. A. Cooke, D.F.C., 151 Squadron, 6th May, 1944
Lt. A. A. Harrington USAAF, 410 Squadron, 29th October, 1944
 
Does any of this actually matter? - fact is that the Mosquito was highly successful and thousands were operated successfully by air forces that were far more familiar with all metal structures, often in highly adverse conditions; that should say something about the design qualities of the Mosquito and the qualities of those who had to service and maintain the aircraft in the field 70 odd years ago.
No it doesn't matter if you want to talk about it's operational history - the Mosquito was one of the best combat aircraft built during WW2 - the point here is it was made from materials that presented other maintenance and operational challenges that metal aircraft didn't have to deal with and that's why there was never another combat aircraft like the Mosquito built in the post war years. The Mosquito offered a solution to a requirement despite having some limitation.

BTW, I'm probably one of the few if not the only maintainer on this forum who has worked with both wood and metal, so I think I know a little something about this if that matters to you or not...

We should possibly stop calling the Mossie a wooden plane and start calling it a composite plane.

A list of ingredients

Hard woods, Balsa and Mahogany
Soft woods, Spruce, Fir
Glues, originally Cascemite resin made of Casine which is extracted from milk, later Urea Formaldehyde resin. Plus whatever was used to glue the Plywood laminates.
Sheathing, Egyptian Cotton and dope made from Nitro cellulose or acetate not sure what the RAF used possibly both.
Metals, Brass, Phosphour Bronze, Aluminium, Steel.

The basic structure still had a majority of "wood." In the composite world today the rule of thumb is when there is 30% or more of another material (fiberglass/ Kevlar or fiberglass/ graphite for example) The glues and resins are normally not considered.
 
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IMO. Moskito not required or needed. It was a blip on the overall WWII radar. Not taking anything away from its grace elegance mind you.
And as I said before, the last place I would want to be is in a wooden aircraft with 20mm HE rounds behind me.
 
No it doesn't matter if you want to talk about it's operational history - the Mosquito was one of the best combat aircraft built during WW2 - the point here is it was made from materials that presented other maintenance and operational challenges that metal aircraft didn't have to deal with and that's why there was never another combat aircraft like the Mosquito built in the post war years. The Mosquito offered a solution to a requirement despite having some limitation.

The challenges of maintaining and operating a wooden aircraft didn't seem to be much of an obstacle during WW2; note that 105 and 139 Sqns, the first operational bomber units, both converted from all-metal aircraft, as did the original NF and reconnaissance units, and there seemed to be few problems encountered with the transition.

BTW, I'm probably one of the few if not the only maintainer on this forum who has worked with both wood and metal, so I think I know a little something about this if that matters to you or not...

Your experience is not in question.

IMO. Moskito not required or needed. It was a blip on the overall WWII radar. Not taking anything away from its grace elegance mind you.
And as I said before, the last place I would want to be is in a wooden aircraft with 20mm HE rounds behind me.

The Mosquito was a very handy "blip on the radar" to have in the arsenal and it was definitely needed, considering the miserable experiences of all too many Blenheim crews who were forced to operate a thoroughly obsolescent aircraft well past its use by date. Having 20mm HE shells zinging around any aircraft, whether wooden or metal, was unhealthy and there were many Mosquito crews who were very grateful about the amount of damage the wooden structure could take and still get them home.
 
IMO. Moskito not required or needed. It was a blip on the overall WWII radar. Not taking anything away from its grace elegance mind you.
And as I said before, the last place I would want to be is in a wooden aircraft with 20mm HE rounds behind me.

A blip? ... blimey.
 
IMO. Moskito not required or needed. It was a blip on the overall WWII radar. Not taking anything away from its grace elegance mind you.
And as I said before, the last place I would want to be is in a wooden aircraft with 20mm HE rounds behind me.
Not required or needed!!
 
The Moskito, aka the Ta154, was most certainly a blip on the overall WWII radar.

The DH100 and DH103 had quite a lot of wood used in their construction. Was there any problems with these a/c?
 

No worries Mike. As I say, the late-war stuff should become clearer in the next couple of years. There are obviously more Mossies missing, fate unknown, however most of these are low-level 2 TAF or Intruder aircraft, so flak or misadventure are more likely causes, especially given the extent of knowledge regarding LW fighte claims, NJG 11 excepted.

Thanks also for those combat reports!
 
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The challenges of maintaining and operating a wooden aircraft didn't seem to be much of an obstacle during WW2; note that 105 and 139 Sqns, the first operational bomber units, both converted from all-metal aircraft, as did the original NF and reconnaissance units, and there seemed to be few problems encountered with the transition.
It wasn't - but in hindsight we know that it is easier for the most part to maintain and repair a metal aircraft than a wooden one. Both squadrons never left Europe, therefore didn't have to deal with changing climate conditions resulting in wood shrinkage, fungus and possibly dry rot although I doubt either units aircraft ever had to deal with the latter.

For those interested, here's a little info about maintenance and repair of wood structures...

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...raft/amt_airframe_handbook/media/ama_Ch06.pdf
 
It wasn't - but in hindsight we know that it is easier for the most part to maintain and repair a metal aircraft than a wooden one. Both squadrons never left Europe, therefore didn't have to deal with changing climate conditions resulting in wood shrinkage, fungus and possibly dry rot although I doubt either units aircraft ever had to deal with the latter.

I only cited two squadrons out of the many that used Mosquitos, some in some of the most hostile weather/climate conditions imaginable: eg: 2 TAF operated Mosquitos during the winter of 1944-45 - one of the worst on record; Coastal Command units had to operate the Mosquito in a salt water environment while operating out of some pretty bleak airfields

For those interested, here's a little info about maintenance and repair of wood structures...

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...raft/amt_airframe_handbook/media/ama_Ch06.pdf

Which runs to 28 pages...And here's a little info about maintenance and repair of metal structures - 114 pages, 34 of which are devoted to equipment needed.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...raft/amt_airframe_handbook/media/ama_Ch04.pdf

The Mosquito Repair Organisation:
Mossierepair1-001.gif


Mossierepair2-001.gif


Mossierepair3-001.gif
 
IMO. Moskito not required or needed. It was a blip on the overall WWII radar. Not taking anything away from its grace elegance mind you.
And as I said before, the last place I would want to be is in a wooden aircraft with 20mm HE rounds behind me.

But it was the RAF aircraft I would want to fly to stand the best chance of survival.

I'm not sure that having a few millimetres of dural as opposed to a few millimetres of composite wooden material between me and the incoming rounds would make the slightest difference

Cheers

Steve
 
Neither is going to stop a 20mm so the protection issue is a moot point either way, but sandwich construction spreads damage loads over it's area whereas riveted aluminium applies them to the nearest joint leading to a stress failure point!

contrary to common thinking the sandwich also insulates heat far better than thin alloy skins, resists burning just as well and alloy burns through more easily than a sandwich construction!

Mossies were reknown for getting crews back to base with considerable damage!

As flyboy mentions though, considerably more difficult to repair!
 

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