Mossie vs Ju88

[helmitsmit]

So although the Mossie had sparkling performance it more about who made the first mistake. Due to the visiblity at night. The radar must have also been a factor as both sides were continually up grading.

I heard a report from a German nightfighter pilot, flying ME109G10 in a Flypast magazine.

He sure a Mossie some ft bellow him dive on him but he couldn't give close enough so he open up his engine to max overide and still failed to get close enough and then his engine went bang and he baled out!

I know it is a lot different from the Ju88 but if an Me109 had problem. The JU88 didn't have a chance. And as they were bigger then the 109 they would be easier to see. So it must have been luck that they shot any mossies down at all!?[/i]

 

[Udet]

I have always had a rough time attempting to understand why is it the allies claim to have had superb twin engined fighters while tagging in a fast track procedure all German twin engined fighters "as no match against our fighters".

 

[plan_D]

The Mosquito was an awesome twin-engined fighter. And most widely accepted among both sides as being the best night fighter of the war.

 

[Erich]

Was ist Geschwindigkeit der Schwärzung ?

depends whom you talk with plan. In most cases yes the Mossie late mark nf's were a hand full. we have to remember the Bf 110 and Ju 88 were first marked out as destroyer/bombers and not first as night fighters. the Ju 88 especially is a large craft but most sutiable for nocturnal missions and it was the preferred steed in the Luftwaffe arsenal by 1945

more coming ........

 

[Smokey]

I heard that the Ju 88 could out turn the mosquito

 

[Glider]

Udet
Calling it a fast track procedure is a bit thick. The He219 was proably the best nightfighter the Germans had and in performance there wasn't much between them. However the Radar fitted to the German nightfighters didn't match up to those available to the RAF and of course the Mossie.
The Ju88 nightfighter was a converted standard bomber albeit a good one, but it couldn't match the Mossie. The Me110 was also a good nightfighter but again lacked the performance of the Mossie.

People talk about the Me262 nightfighter but frankly and I admit that this is a personal view, I feel that it was the wrong plane for the job.

So for the nightfighters the Germans lacked the combination of plane and Radar. They could and did inflict serious damage to the bombers but against the Mossie they were outclassed.

If you talk day fighters I don't know anyone who says that the Me262 was a bad two engined fighter. If you go for the early 1939/40 I would argue that the Me110 was as good as any other two engined fighter around.

 

[Erich]

the He 219 was out the door by 1945. Non proven. the Ju 88G-6 was coming to it's own and it is wrong to presume that Allied radar was above standard of the Germans as it was not. The war came to early for the German techs to mass produce several innovations that were not jammable in the spring of 45.

not to get off topic but the Me 262A-1a was superiror to anything the Allies had at night. the stats already prove it. problem was the fuel consumption, again for the Germans the war ended before the enclosed celled Me 262B-2a bcame available which would have dominated the skies but I do not wish to talk of what ifs.

as I said more to come, lets please continue Mossie vs Ju 88 shall we ?

 

[Udet]

The capabilities of the Mossie are acknowledged.

However, and putting things this way, if a Mossie and Ju 88 clashed in daylight, are they sure the Junkers stood no chance, at all?

I´d have the assertion come under the closest of the scrutinies.

Let´s recall some issues redarding the Ju 88:

During the BoB, the Ju 88 A, as a medium bomber, once the bombolad was released, had extraordinary manouvering and climbing capabilities.
It could hit the 480km/hr mark, while the Hurricane Mk I sent out to intercept it had a maximum speed about 525km/hr, not what one could call a dramatic difference.

Think of a "what if"...the Bf109G´s or Fw190s intercepting B-17s in 1944.
The B-17 had a maximum speed of 620km/hr after releasing its bombs, only 40km/hr slower than their killer?

Keeping in mind the real fast process in the evolution and gearing up of combat aircraft during WWII, I do think this is illustrative.

I have talked to RAF veterans who failed to catch Ju88s during the BoB.

The late Ju 88 G-6 fighter, compared with its former medium bomber relative, increased its speed in 150km/hr, reaching nearly 630km/hr, also retaining flying abilities.

 

[Erich]

I think I better include some info from my forth coming book " Im Schatten des Mundes liegen " ( Lying in the Shadow of the Moon ), and hopeful this will be of some interest.

By the way several Mosquito night fighters were shot down by rear gunners of both Bf 110G-4's and Ju 88G's

 

[plan_D]

I suppose gunners would be more deadly at night - after all the attacker does have to get closer to actually see what he's shootin' at.

And I think a Mosquito would have the edge in a daylight dogfight.

 

[Erich]

plan I am not sure but the German rear gunners may have had a night fighters moon on the night of the Mossie shoot downs.

what I mean by this is that the Mossie was highlighted by the bright moonlight so there was much more than a familiar outline for the German crew to identify. A curse for the attacker, a saviour for the hunted prey

 

[plan_D]

True ... the Nachtjagd were kind of stuck in limbo though - they were the hunters and the hunted ...while the Mosquitos were the hunters, the bombers the hunted.

Moonlight would have been a blessing and a curse for the nachtjagd when on the prowl.

 

[Erich]

only a helpmate at low altitude against ground targets on the east and western fronts but that is another story. I will also make comment on helmetsmit Bf 109G-10 story as I have a bag of treats on this unit(s) as well......

 

[lesofprimus]

***Licking Lips and Salivating in Anticipation***

 

[Gnomey]

Look forward to it Erich

 

[Erich]

I've go so many scattered notes in the office this morn...arg !

let me touch on this briefly as it will be covered in our "Mosquito-jagd über Deutschland" book, and I am not wanting to flit this work. so to keep you all in suspense.

The Bf 109G-6/AS and later G-14/AS and G-10's in early 45 were used to chase down the Mossie bombers flying on three approaches towards Berlin to and away from the target back home. I./NJG 11 and 10.(N)/JG 300 as well as 1./NJGr 10 had the 109's and were used in this capacity from the summer of 44 till Novembers end when there was a revamping of the gruppen, 10 th staffel of JG 300 became the basis for II./NJG 11 and a new 10th staffel flying day missions occurred. NJG 11 then was removed from the anti mossie duties to chase down RAF 4 engine jobs as well as NJGr 10 single engine.

The tactik used was to get airborne individually and not by schwarm or staffel and follow at a grater height the Mossie bombers in "their" lanes highlighted by searchlights........... this wasw Helle nacht and not the typical Wilde Sau technique as most are familiar with. Once the Mossie was seen the Bf 109G pilot was hopeful he had the height and speed advantage and would dive down to try and catch the Mosquito. sometimes this worked and sometimes it did not.
I know of only one incident so far at least in the 10th staffel that a 109G-6/AS was returning from a mission to base and was attacked by a Mossie nf. the Mossie nf pilot overshot the 109 as the 109 pilot did a slight dive and turned hard and got in behind the Mossie and let go with his 2cm cannon bringing the Mossie crashing down to earth..........

The incidents involving nf vs nf of course are a bit different with the Mossie usaully being the hunter and the Ju 88G-6 crew the prey, evading, changing altitude, quick dives and then brough back up to altitude with the radar operator always listening for the change in the tickling in his earphones ~ an enemy intruder in the area.....
and as I said before earlier it was not uncommon after a long night that the German crew just headed for ground and opened up the bird and raced for home, hoping that the RAF AI would collect ground interference and not detect the Ju......the Ju pilot being on his toes that he would not send his crew into a hill yes it happened and I have pics to show these ugly mistakes.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maximum speed for a Ju-88 A1 was about 460-465 kph, and about 60 kph slower with a full bomb/fuel load, mostly due to additional drag by the bombs which hung on external mounts

The A5, with longer span wings, Jumo 211Gs and more equipment (extra armour, more guns, revised undercarrige) was about 5 kph slower.

The A4 recieved the uprated Jumo 211Fs, could do about 475-480 kph unladen, but it didn't see BoB service.

A Hurricane wouldn't have too much trouble intercepting a loaded Ju88A1/A5. However, after they had dropped their bombs Ju-88 crews could generally enter a prolonged shallow dive and run all the way back to the French coast at more than 300mph, which made them very dificult to intercept on their return runs.

Generally, Allied twin engined fighters were the superior of their Axis counterparts. The P-38 was the only twin engined fighter of the war which could effectively dogfight with single engined fighters, as well having the aboility to haul the same bombload as most medim bombers by the end of the war. The Westland Whirlwind was described as a superlative dogfighting machine, but the expensive airframe, the Rolls-Royce engine situation and changing operational requirements prevented it from becoming the sucess it should have been. Performance estimates for the Whirlwind Mk II, with Merlin XIIs were around 420 mph. Essentially the Whirlwind was an airframe without an engine.

The early German zerstoyers (Me-110, Me-210) were not capable of defending themseves adequately against single seqat fighters. The later Me-410 was quite good, but its opposition, mostly in the form of escorting P-38s, P-51s and P-47s, were just too good in too many numbers.

The Mosquito had the lowest loss rate of any Allied bomber of the war. It was fast, adaptable to almost any role, heavily armed and capable of doing things no other Allied medium bomber could. In many ways it was the couterpart to the Ju-88 and their evolutions reflect that.

The Mosquito evolved first as a unarmed fast day-bomber (380 mph in first variants), then later into fighter, fighter bomber and night fighter variants. Emphasis was placed on attack; better bomber and fighter bomber variants with larger bombloads and better aiming equipment.

The Ju-88 started as a medium attack and dive bomber. Later variants shifted the emphasis to defence; night fighters and anti-tank/ground attack types. It still saw used as an night intruder and long range photo-reconissance plane, but decreasing emphasis was placed on these roles.

 

[Parmigiano]

According to this site

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/germany/junkers/ju_88/Ju_88_nf.htm

the nightfighter late versions of the Ju 88 could actually reach speed in the 630 Kmh range (see G7b) with a more than respectable cruise speed of 560 kmh.

The G7c, with the new covered aerials could even had a bit less drag and be a bit faster.

Junkers Ju 88G-1
Role: Night-fighter
Crew: Four
Dimensions:Length (excluding radar) 47 ft 8.5 in (14.54 m), (including SN-2 aerials) 54 ft 1.5 in (16.50 m); Height 15 ft 11 in (4.85 m); Wing Span 65 ft 7.5 in (20.0 m); Wing Area 586.63sq ft (54.5 sq m)
Engine(s): Two 14 cylinder, air cooled, BMW 801D-2 radials of 1,700 hp (1268 kW) each.
Weights: Empty Equipped 20,020 lb (9,081 kg); Normal Take-off 28,870 lb (13,095 kg); Maximum Take-off 32,385 lb (14,690 kg)
Performance: Maximum level speed 356 mph (573 kph) at 27,890 ft (8,500 m) with SN-2 but no upward-firing guns, 342 mph (550 kph) at same altitude with 'Schräge Musik' installation; Service ceiling 29,000 ft (8,840 m); Normal range 1,553 mls (2,500 km); Maximum endurance on internal fuel 4.75 hours.
Armament: Four fixed forward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in ventral tray with 200 rounds each and one flexible 13 mm MG 131 machine-gun at rear of cockpit with 500 rounds. Optional 'Schräge Musik' installation in upper fuselage with two 20 mm MG 151 cannon firing obliquely forward


Junkers Ju 88G-7b
Role: Night-fighter
Crew: Three
Dimensions:Length (excluding radar) 47 ft 8.5 in (14.54 m); Height 15 ft 11 in (4.85 m); Wing Span 65 ft 7.5 in (20.0 m); Wing Area 586.63sq ft (54.5 sq m)
Engine(s): Two liquid cooled, 12 cylinder inverted-Vee, Junkers Jumo 213E of 1,725 hp (? kW) each.
Weights: Empty Equipped 20,503 lb (9,300 kg); Normal Take-off 28,885 lb (13,100 kg); Maximum Take-off 32,353 lb (14,675 kg)
Performance: Maximum level speed 270 mph (434 kph) at sea level, 363 mph (585 kph) at 33,500 ft (10,200 m), 389 mph (626 kph) at 29,529 ft (9,000 m) with MW-50 emergency boost; Cruising speed 348 mph (560 kph) at 29,529 ft (9,000 m); Initial rate of climb 1640 ft/min (500 m/min); Time to 30,185 ft (9,200 m) 26 min 24 sec; Service ceiling 32,810 ft (10,000 m); Normal range 1,398 mls (2,250 km); Endurance (at maximum economical cruising speed) 3.72 hours at 29,800 ft (9,083 m).
Armament: Four fixed forward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in ventral tray with 200 rounds each, two fixed oblique upward-firing 20mm MG 151 cannon in dorsal 'Schräge Musik' position with 200 rounds each, one flexible 13 mm MG 131 machine-gun at rear of cockpit with 500 rounds.

 

[Erich]

Parmigiano :

please allow me to make some corrections on the Ju 88G nf's.

first the G-1 did not have a crew of four, it was three.

Also and this is very important there never was a G-7 variant(s), also G-6 a, b and c are incorrect. there was never a sub-variant nomenclature as this was set up after hostilities by the RAF upon capture and inspection.
The G-6 could bust out 425mph on a flat out using MW 50 for a short term of 10 to 20 minutes, sometimes blowing out the Jumo engines during escape manuevers.

 

[Parmigiano]

Thank you Erich, I just cut-and-paste from the linked site, have no know how about the (infinite) variants of the 88!
Probably in the site they mixed up G6 and G7.

But apart from the emergency speed with the MW50 for the G6 (.. and btw 425 mph for 10-20 min is a hell of a run!) , what i find remarkable (if the site can be trusted) is the cruise at around 350 mph : this is the real operative speed and is a very fast pace, directly comparable with the Mossie. I always thought that the Mossie was much faster than any other 'bomber born' twins.