Mossie vs Ju88

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Here is some reseach still going on with an English contact. Ace and friend Heinz Rokker of 2./NJG 2 was the German pilot.

Hi Erich

The following is the copy of an e-mail I sent to George Sorrell niece, who is researching their family history. It is briefly what I have discovered and can prove with many documents and letters. It will be enough to tell you what I have and should at any time you want more them you only have to ask.

George Sorrell joined the RAF in Sept. 43. He trained as a Flight Engineer, probably at St. Athan. Having completed his training, he have then been sent to a "Conversion Unit", where crews had already been selected but did not require a Flight Engineer. At this point the crews moved on to 4 engined aircraft. In this case, George went to No. 1659 Heavy Conversion Unit at Topcliffe, where he joined the crew of "Jake" Thompson. Jake and all his crew were Canadians and belonged to 432 Squadron RCAF. It was at that time quite usual for "Commonwealth Squadrons to have British Flt/Engineers as all were trained in this Country.




All have since died from natural causes. Except Bill Worthington. The crew were generally older than usual (in their 30's) as most of them had been instructing in Canada. The two Gunners were 19.

From there they moved to 432 Squadron at East Moor, Yorkshire, on 31St Aug. 1944. The crew flew together on 16 missions.

On the night of 14th/!5th Feb.1945 the crew were to be sent on a raid on Chemnitz near the Czech boarder. At the last min. Bill was declared "unfit to fly", through a tummy bug and his place was taken by Dick Stringer.

On that night the crew were flying Halifax Mk VII, RG449, coded QO- S of 432 Sqdn and took off from East Moor at 4.49pm. The trip should have taken about 7 a half hours. They completed the trip and dropped their bombs on Chemnitz and took a homeward course. Night fighter activity was extensive and at about 10.15pm they were attacked by a Junkers Ju.88. The first burst of fire set the right hand inner engine on fire and the second the left inner engine. This would have had a dramatic effect on the aircraft and the pilot gave the order to "Bale out". I have a report from one of the crew, who states the order of bale out and that the Flight Engineers station had been demolished by the gun fire and that George had been killed as a result of it. The aircraft crashed just west of Schonau an der Brent. All survived their jump, but George crashed with the aircraft. I have a first hand report that what little remained of George was buried in the local churchyard until 1947, if my memory serves me correctly, when he was transfer to the War Cemetery at Hanover.


Last May, Son Peter and his German wife visited Schonau, took many photographs and interviewed some people who remembered the incident. They were also shown the actual crash site. From my enquiries I am 99% sure that they were attacked by a Ju.88 flown by Heinz Rokker, the number 6 or 8 on the list of top night fighter aces. He is still alive and can confirm he and his crew shot down a "four engined" bomber at that locality and at about that time.

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and yes friend the 350mph and faster is not a myth of the Ju 88G-6 in the cruise mode. The a/c fighter version was a powerful contender in the night skies as a nachtjäger.
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some more comments. After the SN-2d or FuG 220d set was acquired and used on a successful basis the FuG 218 Neptun was being developed and sent to operational units, the FuG 220d was still the standard during 1945 and nother radar aerial fittings occurred for a more streamlined look, with less drag and thus more speed. Two version were used on a very limited basis the first was a horizontal fitting with the aerials in an X fitting toward a point directly in center of the nose outward as shown in the II./NJG 5 Gruppenkommandeurs 88G-6 a/c. Note the black doppelwinkel >> by the wing.....

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and then to completly reduce the drag and provide maximum speed and endurance a special plywood nosecone was constructed to overfit the horizontal pole and X configuration with only the top of the X elements protruding and the tip covered in a special clear plexi-glas cover. the unit then was on par with the latest Mossie XXX in performance. The FuG 220d in this set-up was of limited operational use and the exposed FuG 220d with the 45 degree angled dipoles was continued to be produced.
A craft from NJG 4 under RCAF management at war's end

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I have footage of Ju 88 As in trial flights: the manouvering is stunning.

Also I have footage of combat flights of Ju88s over England in 1940.

I will insist the difference between top speed of Ju 88 As and Hurricane Mk I is far from significant. Hardly an advantage for the RAF interceptor in that particular department.

Although off-topic, I used the example in an attempt to illustrate I do not believe the much faster, up-graded and improved Ju 88 G´s were "hopeless" against the Mossie.

As I said, Mossie´s performance is acknowledged; what I do think it is not accurately acknowledged would be the capabilities of the Ju88´s.



In fact, as Super Jabberwocky pointed out, a phenomenal dive was another feature of the Ju 88s.

Jabber: I have collected evidence on the 480 km/hr (bombload-free) attained by the Ju 88 on the flat run during the BoB, and of Hurricane pilots failing to catch it -and also of several who got killed by the MGs of the German craft-.



Jabber, regarding the Me 410 -do any web search- and you will find the typical allied prescription when referring to the latest Zerstörer; it is put pretty much a "good plane but"...but followed by any of these two choices of words:

(i) "was no match against allied fighters"; and
(ii) "stood very little chance against more nimble single engine enemy fighters".

The Zerstörer was involved in heavy air battles during 1944, and scored a good number of enemy fighters and not just heavy bombers. Did it take heavy losses? Sure; so did the great 109s, 190s, P-47s, P-51s, Spitfires...

The (i) specs (a nice feature: its weaponry, any single engine fighter of the USAAF or RAF caught in the right aiming angle could be pulverized to dust) and (ii) known combat record of the 410 suggests me it could more than deal, at least, with the P-38.

A rougher time could certainly come when engaging P-47s, P-51s or Spitfires, still I am not so sure if it was "hopeless". Also, the crews who flew it in 1944, a year of blood, praised the capabilities of the plane in combat. I do not think they were making tales up regarding the potential of the twin engined toy.


Finally, and back on topic, the fundamental target of the Nachtjäger were the heavy bombers and not the Mossies.

Now, in view of a one vs. one engagement, I´d rather withhold any prediction.
 
well lets remember one thing, the Ju 88G crews primary function WAS to bring down RAF 4-motors and secondary watch for Mossies or any Allied nf.. Not sure if any German nf attack was thwarted by the intervention of a Mossie nf, it is just on the trail going home that the German nf crew had to be a whole on top of things functioning unit.

As can be seen the quoted speed cruise and not by me mind you, was competitve with the latter marks of Mosquito nf's so in respects the Ju 88G was a larger a/c and not quite as nimble it could be a fair running race on the flat out, but with any intruder sortie the hunter had to have the quick jump on his prey no matter what nation would be contrived. One thing seen of course is the Mossie only had two crew members and no rearward armament something that upon different views could of been sorely missed.
 
Guten Abend gents !

thought I would throw a couple everyones way. just pulled this up.

Hauptmann Kamstieß of II./NJG 2 flying a Ju 88G-6 on the night of December 27, 1944 shot down 1 Mossie XXX over Holsbeek, Belgium, Mossie coded MM 709 of 219th squadron, flown by D.L. Ryalls and J.B. Hampson.

Unteroffizier Scherer on the night of January 13, 1945 at 00.28 hrs shot down 1 Mosquito South-east of Cuxhaven as his 3rd victory flying with II./NJG 4.

Ofw. Rudi Mangelsdorf flying a Ju 88G-6 in 12./NJG 3 shot down a Halifax at 22.05 hrs and then at 22.11 hrs a Mosquito VI coded YP-C north of Hannover over Beckedorf on January 16, 1945.
 
Zip, nadda my friend !

I do wish. A JaPo book is suppose to come out on the Ju 88G last year with plenty of photos but it never materialized, so am not sure if anyone is going to except yours truly 8)
 
Hells bells taco shells ! hey man it's only been 15 years so far ......... :lol: like the Germans say the weather is like an Alt Frau sommer and I have plenty of time. Not really
 
Udet,

the Kennblatt for the Ju-88 A4 states that max speed is 470 kph at 5.3 km.

The A4 was a revision of the Ju-88 A1, with uprated Jumo 211F or 211J engines producing 1,400ps (1,380 hp) and the longer span wings of the Ju-88 A5. The 211B/G fitted to the Ju-88 A1 produced 1,200 ps (1,185 hp).

Most sources commonly quote the Ju-88 A1s top speed as between 445 and 460 kph, with the average figure being 450 kph.

Are you suggesting that the Ju-88 A1, which was lighter but with less powerful engines, was some 10 kph faster than the bomber that replaced it?

To further my argument look at the performance of the Ju-86Ca/b, a dedicated heavy day/night fighter variant. It has better aerodynamics, only 400 kg more weight, fewer crew and higher power egines than the A1. Top speed was 500 kph at 6000m for the day fighter and 485 kph at the same height for the night fighter version, the difference being the weight of the FuG 202/212 intercept radar and the associated antenna.
 
am curious are you tying to compare stats with Junkers 88 bombers with Ju 88G-6 Nachtjäger ..... ?

on the dge, surrendered D5+KV in Denmark. V and X staffels were lined up one behind the other in rows, the X group had black spinners and the V had the white tips. It has been said of the Ost front gruppen that carried spiralschnauze from time to time; that it would throw off the Soviet AA gunners during day ground attack missions. seems rather pointless as a Staffel ID marking at night but rather a collection point for the staffeln aircraft. Photo curtousy of the Royal Dutch Airforce archiv

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this is a well known image but very Kühl nonetheless....surrender of a mixture of NJG 3 forces, Ju 88G-6's, Bf 110G-4's and an array of Ju 88 bombers. Note the differences in camo and there is quite a bit. The standard RLM 75 greys with RLM 76 white-blue-grey, and also eveident is the RLM 76 Grey-blue with the Welle or meander pattern of squiggles of green-violet for use as ground camo. Note the reversal of the Ju 88 Bomber camo dark with the light grey squig's over the fuselage for travel over the ocean

comments ?

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also of note is the rudder and flaps locks inplace. photo courtesy again of the RDAF. Check out the bomber wing in the foreground and the all blue-grey tail of the Ju 88G-6
 
several examples were flown back to England, with different radar sets. then torn apart or flown till wrecked or destroyed by weather. for NJG 3's Junkers most were lined up opposite of the Bf 110G-4's still left in the nacht wing and then blown up. Here is a nice colour example of that Welle pattern I was talking of off a Ju 88G-6. would love to have this example in my office
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