Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[fastmongrel]

If you read in the wiki article only about 20 were built with that tail, plus the first Lancaster prototype.

Got you I should have read the whole article

 

[pbehn]

Got you I should have read the whole article

While the Manchester was designed with a twin tail, the first production aircraft, designated the Mk I, had a central fin added and twenty aircraft like this were built. They were succeeded by the Mk IA which reverted to the twin-fin system but used enlarged, taller fin and rudders mounted on a new tailplane, with span increased from 22 ft (6.71 m) to 33 ft (10.06 m). This configuration was carried over to the Lancaster, except for the first prototype, which also used a central fin and was a converted, unfinished Manchester.[12]​

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ahh - there are many common parts and assemblies between NA-73, 83/91 and NA-97 and NA-99, and NA-102/103/104/106/109/111 etc.

True, after the P-51B, the P-51D upper frame-aft was changed from firewall, aft. The empennage and wings firewall forward, and lower fuselage Frame aft are basically the same.

Primary changes from Allison to Merlin was Firewall- forward, dropping wing, changing cooling system - most of airframe was same.

Bill - many years ago I did an annual on a NA Navion, very well kept polished aluminum bird. When I looked into the interior empennage I could see some original P/N markings that were changed and re-identified, also had some rivet patterns painted into the zinc chromate that were not picked up when the aircraft was assembled. IIRC the owner told me his aircraft was the 11th built by NA and the skins were originally supposed to be for P-51s and the Navion had some common components with the Mustang. Have you ever heard of this?

 

[pbehn]

Ahh - there are many common parts and assemblies between NA-73, 83/91 and NA-97 and NA-99, and NA-102/103/104/106/109/111 etc.

True, after the P-51B, the P-51D upper frame-aft was changed from firewall, aft. The empennage and wings firewall forward, and lower fuselage Frame aft are basically the same.

Primary changes from Allison to Merlin was Firewall- forward, dropping wing, changing cooling system - most of airframe was same.

I was speaking purely from perception, as I as a child and the average man in the street views things, which isnt based on facts at all but impressions.
Compare to a Mustang 1A from approximately the same angle to the P-51D.

https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/builds/hc/build_hc_p-51.shtml

 

[nuuumannn]

While the Manchester was designed with a twin tail, the first production aircraft, designated the Mk I, had a central fin added and twenty aircraft like this were built. They were succeeded by the Mk IA which reverted to the twin-fin system but used enlarged, taller fin and rudders mounted on a new tailplane, with span increased from 22 ft (6.71 m) to 33 ft (10.06 m). This configuration was carried over to the Lancaster, except for the first prototype, which also used a central fin and was a converted, unfinished Manchester.[

A small detail missed out in the wiki appraisal of the situation is that the taller twin fins were fitted to the Manchester Mk.III BT308 first after the removal of the smaller fins and central tail, which was renamed "Lancaster", and from then the tall fins were fitted to the Manchester that appeared as the Mk.Ia.

The central fin was wooden and covered in fabric and buffetting caused by rotating the FN.7 mid-upper turret caused its fabric to balloon and eventually tear, with the fin disintegrating at its severest. The turning of the turret also caused rudder vibration. The taller fins were fitted to BT308 before major trials at the very end of January 1941, but it wasn't until July 1941 that the first Manchesters on the production line received them.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

In my opinion, the most overrated (when reputation exceeds contribution) fighter airplane of WW2 was the Spitfire. It made its reputation and became a public legend during the Battle of Britain but its contribution to the war effort afterwards and eventual victory was very little.

I don't think the Spit was or is overrated amongst folks who know a little about WWII aviation, but I do think podcasts like Spitfire -- the People's Plane, which I've listened to on the way to work, really gloss over the impact the plane had on fighter design.

I'd disagree to its contribution to victory. It not only stood good combat value, but in extending the lifespan and combat capability of the airframe, taught fighter designers a lot about how to get the most out of a planform.

I'd like to have an award for "insightful".

I mean we should have an insightful award.

The closest here is the "useful" bomb. I use it to signify "this made me think about it more", which is, of course, a very useful thing.

 

[nuuumannn]

While the Manchester was designed with a twin tail, the first production aircraft, designated the Mk I, had a central fin added and twenty aircraft like this were built.

I'm not 100 percent certain this is accurate, pbehn, not criticising you, of course, but the source. According to the Avro Putnam book by Jackson, total production amounted to Avro built 156 and assembled 44 that were built by Metro-Vick. The first production batch of Mk.Is was for 49 aircraft, the second for 29, and of the third, five were completed as Mk.Is, whereas the following 69 were built as Mk.Ias with the taller fins. Of the Mk.I production lot, a total of 35 were converted to Mk.Ias, all of which equates to 48 airframes completed as Mk.Is with the triple fins, of Avro production alone. There isn't a breakdown of the differences between Mk.I and Mk.Ia production in the Metro-Vick figures, but a large portion of them were completed or converted as Mk.Ias.

I first noticed the discrepancy in Buttler's Warpaint book on the Manchester, which has nice colour profiles and there are more than 20 illustrated with the triple fins in that book alone, from different serial batches. So beware, wiki watchers...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Didnt it do PR jobs throughout the war?

Lutjens probably regretted them having spotted his departure. Kinda sealed his fate, and all.

 

[nuuumannn]

Let's also not forget that Spitfires played a massive part in Overlord, maintaining standing patrols over the beaches and the fleet as it headed south for France, not to mention throughout the coming months of taking back enemy-held territory, from makeshift fields in France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Spitfires made it as far as Berlin, RAF squadrons flying fighter sweeps deep into Germany following the invasion, so its contribution was vital by being available in numbers alone, let alone the performance advantages it enjoyed compared to its contemporaries through constant innovation.

This all sounds like putting it on a pedestal, heck, all I need do now is put a pretty picture of one up, but what is undeniable are the facts surrounding the type.

More than 22,700 Spitfires were built of all marks, with production from 1938 to 1948. More Spitfires were built than any other Allied fighter of the war. It was a frontline fighter at the outbreak of war in 1939 and was still equipping RAF frontline fighter squadrons at the end of 1945, despite the first jet fighter squadrons having been established the previous year. The Spitfire XIV is frequently rated as one of the best performing fighters of the war. The following gives an indication of how good the type was, with comparisons with Mustang III, Spitfire IX, Tempest V, and Bf 109G and Fw 190A.

Spitfire Mk XIV Tactical Trials

 

[Big Jake]

In my opinion, the most overrated (when reputation exceeds contribution) fighter airplane of WW2 was the Spitfire. It made its reputation and became a public legend during the Battle of Britain but its contribution to the war effort afterwards and eventual victory was very small.

 

[drgondog]

Bill - many years ago I did an annual on a NA Navion, very well kept polished aluminum bird. When I looked into the interior empennage I could see some original P/N markings that were changed and re-identified, also had some rivet patterns painted into the zinc chromate that were not picked up when the aircraft was assembled. IIRC the owner told me his aircraft was the 11th built by NA and the skins were originally supposed to be for P-51s and the Navion had some common components with the Mustang. Have you ever heard of this?

Joe - I don't know. I will check

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

More than 22,700 Spitfires were built of all marks, with production from 1938 to 1948.

Building 23,000 of anything is quite the vote of confidence, from them who had to both build and fly it. Few airplanes from that era were built in that numbers.

Sarcastic question: I wonder what the Germans thought about it? Did they think it was overrated?

 

[nuuumannn]

I wonder what the Germans thought about it? Did they think it was overrated?

From what I remember off the top of my head from test flights done in 1940, they thought it (and the Hurricane) very easy to land, well, anything was compared to the Bf 109, but the Germans all believed the Bf 109E was superior to the Spitfire Mk.I, which in many respects it certainly was.

 

[GrauGeist]

If I remember right, Gunther Rall liked the Spitfire.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

From what I remember off the top of my head from test flights done in 1940, they thought it (and the Hurricane) very easy to land, well, anything was compared to the Bf 109, but the Germans all believed the Bf 109E was superior to the Spitfire Mk.I, which in many respects it certainly was.

I'm pretty sure they regarded Spits as dangerous opponents both in 1940 and later years.

 

[drgondog]

Bill - many years ago I did an annual on a NA Navion, very well kept polished aluminum bird. When I looked into the interior empennage I could see some original P/N markings that were changed and re-identified, also had some rivet patterns painted into the zinc chromate that were not picked up when the aircraft was assembled. IIRC the owner told me his aircraft was the 11th built by NA and the skins were originally supposed to be for P-51s and the Navion had some common components with the Mustang. Have you ever heard of this?

Joe - I checked with my co-author Lowell Ford who said that it was possible certain stock parts like rudder/elevator linkages, etc may have been used for the Navion, that he was not aware of any rumors of specific P-51 parts that might have been drawn from Spares and selected for incorporation into the new design.

 

[drgondog]

If I remember right, Gunther Rall liked the Spitfire.

How could anybody not love the Spitfire? Post VE-Day, dad had time in the IX and said it might have been the most delightful aircraft to fly of any that he ever flew. He ranked P-51H, F-86E/F, and Spit IX in any order. He was surprised that the Spit was easier to land in a crosswind than the 51.

Rall liked the Spit very much but stated that the Mustang was the 'Best' allied fighter - and cited the combination of extreme range with high performance equal or near equal to any fighters that he flew.

 

[pbehn]

How could anybody not love the Spitfire? Post VE-Day, dad had time in the IX and said it might have been the most delightful aircraft to fly of any that he ever flew. He ranked P-51H, F-86E/F, and Spit IX in any order. He was surprised that the Spit was easier to land in a crosswind than the 51.

Pilots who flew the whole range throughout the war said the early versions were the nicest to fly. Adding the weight of cannon and other stuff affected the feel, but that is just discussing a Sunday jaunt, training flight or take of and landing, in terms of fighting someone else the preference was always a Mk VII, IX, XIV or similar late model.

 

[GrauGeist]

Joe - I checked with my co-author Lowell Ford who said that it was possible certain stock parts like rudder/elevator linkages, etc may have been used for the Navion, that he was not aware of any rumors of specific P-51 parts that might have been drawn from Spares and selected for incorporation into the new design.

Bill, didn't NAA have similarities between the Navion's and the Mustang's main gear?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Joe - I checked with my co-author Lowell Ford who said that it was possible certain stock parts like rudder/elevator linkages, etc may have been used for the Navion, that he was not aware of any rumors of specific P-51 parts that might have been drawn from Spares and selected for incorporation into the new design.

Thanks Bill!!