Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....? (1 Viewer)

[Thumpalumpacus]

I thought the P-39 had no short comings.

Given its range -- or lack thereof -- the -39 had both shortgoings and shortcomings.

 

[pbehn]

I would disagree to some extent. Almost obsolete depends on the opposition and that did change quite a bit in just a few years.
In 1938 there wasn't much around that was any better, most were not as good. The Hurricane didn't fall behind in the ETO until the 109F showed up.
In the Med the Italians couldn't match it until they got DB 601 engines in the summer of 1941.
Japanese would have had a very hard time matching it 1940. Claudes and Nates vs Hurricane Is?

For 2 1/2 years the Hurricane was one of the front runners.
How much of the Hurricanes problems were due to poor tactics in the Med and Far East is also subject to question.
British stuck with the 3 plane Vic formation for far too long.

Isnt that what I posted? The Hurricane was always behind the Spitfire in performance, and increasingly behind the Bf109. Putting better engines in the Hurricane to keep it competitive jut shows the gap between to two.

IMO the Hurricane was one of the most underrated aircraft of WW2.

I agree, I have posted similar myself, but that is more because of ease of production and use than performance. The fact that Park had one as a run about during the BoB shows how the Hurricane took production out of the equation, there was never a shortage of Hurricanes just pilots to fly them.

 

[SaparotRob]

It's funny. Guys like Eric Hammel really went out of their way to malign the P-39 by only including pilot memoirs in which they talk about suffering turn stalls in the middle of combat. Or that oft repeated slander that P-39 pilots were ordered to scramble and fly out to sea to avoid danger when Port Moresby was attacked. The reason there is only one reported American P-39 ace is that the performance was so good that the actual combat results remain classified to this day, to protect the reputations of such dogs as the P-38, P47, and P-51. If the actual numbers were ever revealed there would be a huge outcry about the millions of $$$ squadered on these also rans.

And now I know.

 

[SaparotRob]

Given its range -- or lack thereof -- the -39 had both shortgoings and shortcomings.

Man I wish I thought of that first! Brilliant.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Man I wish I thought of that first! Brilliant.

Say what you will about me, I'm a cunning linguist.

 

[Snautzer01]

Best description ever. As good as: cockpit access difficult should be made impossible.

 

[WARSPITER]

It's funny. Guys like Eric Hammel really went out of their way to malign the P-39 by only including pilot memoirs in which they talk about suffering turn stalls in the middle of combat. Or that oft repeated slander that P-39 pilots were ordered to scramble and fly out to sea to avoid danger when Port Moresby was attacked. The reason there is only one reported American P-39 ace is that the performance was so good that the actual combat results remain classified to this day, to protect the reputations of such dogs as the P-38, P47, and P-51. If the actual numbers were ever revealed there would be a huge outcry about the millions of $$$ squadered on these also rans.

This just shows that all they had to do was put a jet engine in the P39 (with upgrades over time) and the F22 / F35 would not be controversial as they never would have
been produced.

 

[GrauGeist]

Maybe now is not a good time to bring up the P-59?

 

[SaparotRob]

Maybe now is not a good time to bring up the P-59?

Yes it is. I was just of thinking of the Planes of Fame Museum's P-59.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Hoo boy, here we go again. The primary P39 model that fought the Zero early days (P39D) COULDN'T outclimb it, and though ultimately faster in an extended chase, couldn't match its instantaneous acceleration, which is a serious disadvantage in combat. Early days combat in New Guinea had P39s defending against bombing raids way above their optimum performance altitudes. Later P39s with more horsepower and less weight would have performed better against Zeke, but by then the P38 had taken over and the Airacobras were going to Russia. It's real shortcoming in the PTO was its limited range.

I have been looking into this. This graph shows aircraft available for combat in the Pacific in 1943. The graphs are by me scanning WWII Aircraft Performance graphs with my Mark_I eyeball, and placing them on my chart again using my Mark_I eyeball. The A6M2 curves were done by the US Navy, and people have pointed out that they were being very, very gentle with their one and only flying Zero. The A6M3 Hamp would have been in service by this time. Both P-38s and F4Us were souped up later in the war. The A6M5 Zeros did around 350mph, a remarkable accomplishment for something with a 28_litre radial engine.

The P-39D had an advantage in speed and climb below 10,000ft. Flying a P-39 against Zeros over a battlefield, you keep your speed high, your altitude fairly low, and you hit and run. According to David Brown in his book on Seafires, an LIIC could dogfight a Zero by outclimbing it, doing its turns at 250mph, and attacking in a series of yoyos. The LIIC also was complete crap at altitude.

Everybody else was told to not dogfight Zeros. The process of learning how to fight Zeros, and the process of replacing P-39s with P-38s, all happened at about the same time.

 

[Greg Boeser]

The problem faced by P-39 drivers early in the war was a lack of adequate early warning, which left the P-39s at a height disadvantage vs high flying Zeros. Climbing into a fight is never good and to be avoided if possible. This is why sometimes, if the Japanese were detected too late, the P-39s had to fly out to sea to avoid getting bounced. The P-39's high wing loading meant getting drawn into a turning fight with a Zero was a losing proposition. Not enough acceleration to maintain a high G turn would lead to stalling and tumbling out of the fight.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I thought we had a groundhog thread?

 

[pbehn]

I thought we had a groundhog thread?

I sense this thread slipping down to the dark side.

 

[SaparotRob]

A chill just went down my spine.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought we had a groundhog thread?

Hoping it will be averted!

 

[at6]

Just where did you think the XP-59 came from?

 

[GrauGeist]

Just where did you think the XP-59 came from?

From the XP-52 project...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hoping it will be averted!

Or, like the plane itself, run out of gas soon.

 

[wuzak]

View attachment 648167

The F6F-3 curve looks wrong.

The F6F-3 had basically the same engine as the F4U-1, so the curve should have the same shape, just to the left (lower speed) and slightly lower altitude for the change points.

 

[WARSPITER]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the climb rate of a groundhog - assuming it has somehow left the ground ?