Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[Vincenzo]

We have already talked of this here now and time ago, probably there is a trouble with the translation

 

[wuzak]

Could the small "c" by the claims number mean confirmed?

c = circa/approximate?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The Battle of Britain Then and Now have the following all cause loss totals, 10 July to 31 October 1940, Bf109 649, Bf110 270, Hurricane 586, Spitfire 364, so while it is possible the various reported losses plus the 1 to 9 July 1940 period saw around 20 Hurricanes and 30 Spitfires lost, the Luftwaffe fighter loss figures differ by around 190 aircraft. Christer has the RAF up an extra 50 losses (997 vs 950), Luftwaffe down 190 (730 vs 919) losses.

The Luftwaffe quartermaster figures July to October 1940 for Bf109 have 502 lost on operations due to enemy action, 98 on operations not due to enemy action, 63 not on operations, total 663. Bf110 224+11+17 = 252. Another 259 Bf109 and 77 Bf110 damaged, all causes (From Wood and Dempster)

The Battle of Britain Then and Now has 233 Bf109, 91 Bf110, 490 Hurricane and 401 Spitfire listed as damaged.

That compares with production of 1,025 Hurricane and 619 Spitfire total 1,644, July to October, or an average of 411 per month.

The USSBS production of Bf109 in 1940 was 1,868, Bf110 1,231, so for four months around 620 Bf109, 410 Bf110.

German Aircraft Production says 1,719 or 1,693 Bf109 and 1,158 or 1,083 Bf110 for 1940, which would drop the 4 month average to around 570 Bf109 and 370 Bf110.

Another reference says 195 Bf109 in September, 144 in October, 60 in November and 115 in December 1940. Bf110 production was 112, 100, 73 and 43.

He111 Production was 6,607 from 1939 to 1944 (USSBS), plus 232 another He111D, H and P delivered to end 1938, then add the prototypes, A, B, C, E, G and J models, (399 B and 30 J delivered to March 1938) another 700 or so machines. So around 7,500 He111.

Excluding prototypes, Britain produced
5,656 bomber + 509 transport Halifax = 6,165
6,944 bomber + 82 transport Lancaster = 7,026 (Then add Canada)
1,030 bomber + 4,917 fighter/PR + 362 trainer Mosquito = 6,314 (Then add Canada and Australia)
1,271 Hampden, 150 Hereford, 1,812 Whitley = 3,233 + 5,402 Blenheim = 8,735 (Plus Canada)

 

[SaparotRob]

The Battle of Britain Then and Now have the following all cause loss totals, 10 July to 31 October 1940, Bf109 649, Bf110 270, Hurricane 586, Spitfire 364, so while it is possible the various reported losses plus the 1 to 9 July 1940 period saw around 20 Hurricanes and 30 Spitfires lost, the Luftwaffe fighter loss figures differ by around 190 aircraft. Christer has the RAF up an extra 50 losses (997 vs 950), Luftwaffe down 190 (730 vs 919) losses.

The Luftwaffe quartermaster figures July to October 1940 for Bf109 have 502 lost on operations due to enemy action, 98 on operations not due to enemy action, 63 not on operations, total 663. Bf110 224+11+17 = 252. Another 259 Bf109 and 77 Bf110 damaged, all causes (From Wood and Dempster)

The Battle of Britain Then and Now has 233 Bf109, 91 Bf110, 490 Hurricane and 401 Spitfire listed as damaged.

That compares with production of 1,025 Hurricane and 619 Spitfire total 1,644, July to October, or an average of 411 per month.

The USSBS production of Bf109 in 1940 was 1,868, Bf110 1,231, so for four months around 620 Bf109, 410 Bf110.

German Aircraft Production says 1,719 or 1,693 Bf109 and 1,158 or 1,083 Bf110 for 1940, which would drop the 4 month average to around 570 Bf109 and 370 Bf110.

Another reference says 195 Bf109 in September, 144 in October, 60 in November and 115 in December 1940. Bf110 production was 112, 100, 73 and 43.

He111 Production was 6,607 from 1939 to 1944 (USSBS), plus 232 another He111D, H and P delivered to end 1938, then add the prototypes, A, B, C, E, G and J models, (399 B and 30 J delivered to March 1938) another 700 or so machines. So around 7,500 He111.

Excluding prototypes, Britain produced
5,656 bomber + 509 transport Halifax = 6,165
6,944 bomber + 82 transport Lancaster = 7,026 (Then add Canada)
1,030 bomber + 4,917 fighter/PR + 362 trainer Mosquito = 6,314 (Then add Canada and Australia)
1,271 Hampden, 150 Hereford, 1,812 Whitley = 3,233 + 5,402 Blenheim = 8,735 (Plus Canada)

So which one was overrated?

 

[NTGray]

So which one was overrated?

I think this is a continuation of the Bf110 discussion (see post #2872 and following), but I could be wrong.

 

[SaparotRob]

I have to scroll up every now again to see which thread I'm on. For awhile, they all seemed to become about the same plane.

 

[Acheron]

Wiki claims that the Me 110 did somewhat acceptable using boom-and-zoom tactics, at leat early in the war. Wiki also claims that the Me 110 had poor acceleration and that making it do close escort duties was disastrous. Opinions here?

 

[NTGray]

Wiki claims that the Me 110 did somewhat acceptable using boom-and-zoom tactics, at leat early in the war. Wiki also claims that the Me 110 had poor acceleration and that making it do close escort duties was disastrous. Opinions here?

Let's back up just a bit and clarify the question. Since the thread title has to do with which airplanes are considered overrated, the answer depends not only on the actual performance of the airplane, but on how inflated its reputation was. So what are we discussing with the Bf110? What was its reputation during and following the war? Was it more than it legitimately deserved?

 

[stona]

Let's back up just a bit and clarify the question. Since the thread title has to do with which airplanes are considered overrated, the answer depends not only on the actual performance of the airplane, but on how inflated its reputation was. So what are we discussing with the Bf110? What was its reputation during and following the war? Was it more than it legitimately deserved?

What close escort duties?

 

[NTGray]

What close escort duties?

Oops. I think you questioned the wrong answer.

 

[SaparotRob]

Oops. I think you questioned the wrong answer.

I like the cut of your jib!

 

[buffnut453]

Oops. I think you questioned the wrong answer.

That's funny 'cos I often answer the wrong question. Is that karma?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Let's back up just a bit and clarify the question. Since the thread title has to do with which airplanes are considered overrated, the answer depends not only on the actual performance of the airplane, but on how inflated its reputation was. So what are we discussing with the Bf110? What was its reputation during and following the war? Was it more than it legitimately deserved?

If we're talking night-fighter, I don't regard the -110 as underrated at all. Superseded by the Ju-88? Sure. But it was effective as hell.

Daylight escort of bombers? Not so sure. That raid from Norway during BoB, escorted by -110s, got shot up pretty badly.

So again, the value of an aircraft often depends on what you're asking it to do.

 

[Greg Boeser]

The raid from Norway was escorted by Bf 110D-0s and -1s with the Dachelbauch conformal belly tank which greatly affected maneuverabilty, and were not easily jettisoned.

 

[John Vasco]

Given the overclaiming done during the Battle of Britain, particularly by the Luftwaffe, those numbers mean nothing.

Fighter Command overclaimed equally. Go check the claims for Stukas on 16th & 18th August 1940, for example.

Or get hold of some volumes of the 'Battle of Britain Combat Archive' series and see other examples of overclaiming on a regular basis. By both sides...

 

[John Vasco]

Let assume these numbers are somewhat correct - to really validate this, sorties would have to be included. Of these aircraft, which ones had the greatest exposure to a combat environment? The fact that the Bf110 is shown with a .06 higher claim to loss ratio is a bit meaningless, 2 or 3 aircraft in either direction of claims/ losses puts it right there with the -109 and Spitfire.

Which shows it performed every bit as well as those two.

The fact is, the fighters on both sides battered the hell out of each other during the Battle of Britain.

 

[John Vasco]

Could the small "c" by the claims number mean confirmed?

I believe the 'C' = circa...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Which shows it performed every bit as well as those two.

No - not until you can make a comparison that has sorties thrown in there. If the -110 was in the air just as much as the Spitfire, -109 or Hurricane, I'd buy that but until that is known I personally question these numbers as how effective the -110 really was.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The raid from Norway was escorted by Bf 110D-0s and -1s with the Dachelbauch conformal belly tank which greatly affected maneuverabilty, and were not easily jettisoned.

How did they do in the South where such a hindrance wasn't a mission requirement?

 

[Greg Boeser]

How did they do in the South where such a hindrance wasn't a mission requirement?

Who cares? The D-1 is a cool model though.