Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

WHAT BLASPHEMY IS THIS?

Of course these things are true... what's your point?

You can't put anything on the internet that isn't true?

 

[Fighterguy]

I havnt seen the movie, but similarly unlikely attacks did happen. James Brindley Nicholson won a V.C. in the BoB for attacking a Bf110 while his Hurricane was on fire. Bob Doe continued an attack on a flight of Bf 109s after his engine cut out while FS Ray Holmes rammed a LW bomber over London.

As for shooting down a Stuka with a dead engine, I suppose it depends how fast and how high you are, I believe it was possible to get across the channel at its narrowest with an engine failure at 20,000ft.

The Spitfire in the movie "Dunkirk" pulled this feat while at less than 1,000 feet, it seemed to fly forever, and the pilot had plenty of time to hand-pump his gear down for a smooth beach landing. Highly improbable.

 

[pbehn]

The Spitfire in the movie "Dunkirk" pulled this feat while at less than 1,000 feet, it seemed to fly forever, and the pilot had plenty of time to hand-pump his gear down for a smooth beach landing. Highly improbable.

That would have been the Spitfire Mk 25, specially produced for future movies, it served as a model for video games having unlimited fuel and ammunition.

 

[YF12A]

I don't know of anyone who thought the Me 163 was overrated. I don't think it even rates. At least not anything more than an eyebrow raising curiosity.

An expensive roman candle? Yes. Probably the only aircraft more prone to self-immolation than a B-24 overloaded with fuel.

Any aircraft that uses fuel that will melt the pilot? Enough said.
About the B-24, my father was extremely unimpressed with the fuel plumbing on at least one Consolidated aircraft he saw in his career, can't remember which, and this was coming from someone whose second all time favorite airplane was the Pby-4/5.

 

[swampyankee]

My two bobs worth about the great p-51 debate. With all respect to bill, I think the poor schmucks forced to fly missions over Germany in lumbering B-17s saw the P-51s escorting them as the angels on their shoulders. Before the escorts being able to fly all the way to the targets and back the bombers were dangerously exposed, and losses were unsustainable. Just look at the Schweinfurt raids and that comes out in spades.

Its too easy to forget the bloodletting inflicted on 8AF before the escorts arrived. It was because of the very real salvation provided by these escorts that the real benefits they provided were transformed by the hyperbole from the stuff of reality to the stuff of legend. It gets important for those guys whose lives depended on it.....

I remember a statistic: the casualty rate for strategic bombing by the 8th AF and its British equivalent was not only higher than the ground forces engaged in combat, but greater than the Japanese kamikaze squadrons.

 

[Peter Gunn]

You can't put anything on the internet that isn't true?

It's a rather specific set of legal implications, as long as it glorifies the P-51 it's true, anything else is illegal...

 

[billrunnels]

It's a rather specific set of legal implications, as long as it glorifies the P-51 it's true, anything else is illegal...

 

[swampyankee]

It's a rather specific set of legal implications, as long as it glorifies the P-51 it's true, anything else is illegal...

I think that that only applies to non-German aircraft, which must be reported as technologically millennia more advanced than any other country's obsolete aircraft, which could have won only because of massive numerical superiority; the Allies were fighting with the aircraft equivalent to swords against the Luftwaffe armed with Star Trek phasers and photon torpedoes.

 

[kevb]

I'd say everyone is missing the forest for the trees as its not a bird that is the most overrated POS, its an engine, one engine in particular...the USA Allison engine. Look at how many birds got crippled by that under powered POS, to this day I'm convinced there was some serious dirty dealing going on with that company, that someone HAD to be getting some kickbacks by how hard that engine was being pushed.

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

 

[Walrus]

Not really, there are some young people who think that the Spitfire was the only RAF fighter and reigned supreme throughout the war. Many modern news articles consider "Battle of Britain pilots", WW2 RAF fighter pilots and Spitfire pilots to be all the same thing. In that sense the Spitfire is over rated.

I believe it is a similar thing in USA but I am in no place to judge. The hard yards against the LW were done by the P51B/C but the P51D is much prettier, this is almost exactly the same as the Hurricane/Spitfire in the Battle of France and BoB. The poor old "bird cage Jug" was consigned to a darkened room of history until photos with a bubble canopy, polished alloy and nose art could be produced.

There is a difference between an aircraft being overrated and an aircraft overshadowing other types.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the general lack of due regard being given to the more workmanlike Hurricane and Thunderbolt.
I would add the B-24 Liberator to the list as it too is overlooked in comparison to the B-17.
However, that does not mean that the performance and achievements of these aircraft should be dismissed due to the ignorance of an ill informed public imho

FWIW My model kit stash has far more Hurries than Spitfires.
P-47s and P-51s are about equal but only because I have enough Thunderbolts to do in various RAF schemes before I even consider USAAF liveries!

 

[soulezoo]

I'd say everyone is missing the forest for the trees as its not a bird that is the most overrated POS, its an engine, one engine in particular...the USA Allison engine. Look at how many birds got crippled by that under powered POS, to this day I'm convinced there was some serious dirty dealing going on with that company, that someone HAD to be getting some kickbacks by how hard that engine was being pushed.

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

That's a little harsh on the Allison... P-38's seemed to do ok with them. The Soviets seemed to be happy with the P-39.
Maybe it wasn't a Merlin, but then again, only a Merlin was a Merlin. Except for a Packard of course.
The Allison v-1710 may not be "engine Uber Alles", but it was a solid engine and definitely not a POS. It needed to be used appropriately.
On Edit while thinking on this: IIRC, the Klimov was a lower powered engine forced into service on the P-40 as the VVS didn't have parts for the Allison. So if my memory is correct, why would you want the Klimov after what you just said about the Allison?

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd say everyone is missing the forest for the trees as its not a bird that is the most overrated POS, its an engine, one engine in particular...the USA Allison engine. Look at how many birds got crippled by that under powered POS, to this day I'm convinced there was some serious dirty dealing going on with that company, that someone HAD to be getting some kickbacks by how hard that engine was being pushed.

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

Toss out you numbers, well sourced preferably, before going out to trash this or that piece of kit.

 

[Peter Gunn]

I'd say everyone is missing the forest for the trees as its not a bird that is the most overrated POS, its an engine, one engine in particular...the USA Allison engine. Look at how many birds got crippled by that under powered POS, to this day I'm convinced there was some serious dirty dealing going on with that company, that someone HAD to be getting some kickbacks by how hard that engine was being pushed.

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

And how many birds were "crippled" by having the Allison V-1710 and in what way? True it isn't a Merlin, it has fewer moving parts and has better fuel consumption at certain altitudes, the lack of a two speed/two stage supercharger is more of an issue.

I second Tomo's suggestion, get some facts with documentation to back up your rather dubious claims.

Perhaps this will help, this guy was actually there, not that I'd cloud the issue with facts or anything... Conversations with N.Golodnikov

 

[Peter Gunn]

I think that that only applies to non-German aircraft, which must be reported as technologically millennia more advanced than any other country's obsolete aircraft, which could have won only because of massive numerical superiority; the Allies were fighting with the aircraft equivalent to swords against the Luftwaffe armed with Star Trek phasers and photon torpedoes.

Oh yeah, forgot about that clause...

 

[swampyankee]

I'd say everyone is missing the forest for the trees as its not a bird that is the most overrated POS, its an engine, one engine in particular...the USA Allison engine. Look at how many birds got crippled by that under powered POS, to this day I'm convinced there was some serious dirty dealing going on with that company, that someone HAD to be getting some kickbacks by how hard that engine was being pushed.

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

There was a P-40 variant with a Merlin. It was still beaten by, among others, the Mustang. The P-40 is under-rated, but it's still not spectacularly good.

The Allison was also quite solidly built and, overall, well-engineered. Allison was not, however, a big company and it did not have the resources that P&WA or Curtiss-Wright had on hand. There need not be corruption, but there was a powerful meme that high-performance aircraft needed V-12 engines.

 

[SPYINTHESKY]

There was a P-40 variant of ith a Merlin. It was still beaten by, among others, the Mustang. The P-40 is under-rated, but it's still not spectacularly good.

The Allison was also quite solidly built and, overall, well-engineered. Allison was not, however, a big company and it did not have the resources that P&WA or Curtiss-Wright had on hand. There need not be corruption, but there was a powerful meme that high-performance aircraft needed V-12 engines.

Beat me to it a Merlin P40 was tested just as the Merlin P51 was tested however the former gained virtually no advantage whatsoever unlike the latter. Equally later the P40 was redesigned/re-engineered into one of the most beautiful looking prototypes of the war and it still couldn't compete with its contemporaries. Its innate aerodynamics and overall legacy design simply limited it too much to be anything but a decent supporting character but never the star. Which actually is a shame because it did stirling service in theatres where rugged reliability and reparability was more appreciated than supreme performance i.e. Middle East and Burma/China. Certainly it and the Hurricane thrived in the Middle East where the Spit could be a pain in the ass.

 

[pbehn]

But if you want a particular bird? The P-40 because sadly with the exception of the Klimov P-40 the Russians tried they were crippled by Allison engines their entire run. Oh how I would love to take out a Klimov P-40 or see what it would have done with a Merlin in a sim, because the Allison engines? Yeah...no, just no.

Flying a "sim" gives what the sim designer wants you to see. The P40L and P40F had the Merlin engine. To have an advanced design you need an advanced airframe and an advanced engine. Putting a Merlin engine in a P40 didn't overcome the shortcomings of the P40 just as putting the latest Merlin in a Hurricane didn't make it a front line fighter, just better than it was before. If Curtis produced the P51A from 1941 then the Allison engine would have a much better reputation.

 

[chuter]

One measure of a plane ie what its opponents thought of it. The Mustang was good enough for some pilots of JG26 to refer to their D9s as Focke Mustangs. I don't know if that makes the Mustang grossly over rated or what ...

 

[Stig1207]

Certainly it and the Hurricane thrived in the Middle East where the Spit could be a pain in the ass.

I guess by Middle East you mean the MTO? If the P-40 and the Hurricane thrived there, why was the the Spitfire sent there at all, rather than just belatedly?

 

[tomo pauk]

Beat me to it a Merlin P40 was tested just as the Merlin P51 was tested however the former gained virtually no advantage whatsoever unlike the latter. Equally later the P40 was redesigned/re-engineered into one of the most beautiful looking prototypes of the war and it still couldn't compete with its contemporaries. Its innate aerodynamics and overall legacy design simply limited it too much to be anything but a decent supporting character but never the star. Which actually is a shame because it did stirling service in theatres where rugged reliability and reparability was more appreciated than supreme performance i.e. Middle East and Burma/China. Certainly it and the Hurricane thrived in the Middle East where the Spit could be a pain in the ass.

Mustang got much better Merlins than the P-40, thus the small gain for the Merlinized P-40s vs. big gain for the Merlinized Mustangs.
XP-40Q was as fast or faster vs. XF8F-1, any F6F, F7F, F4U-1D, or Bf 109G6-AS/G-10, or the best Soviet ot Japanese fighters, or best Fw 190As, or Merlin Spitfires, or Spitfire XII. Slightly slower than P-38, Tempest of Fw 190D-9. Plus it was with competitive rate of climb.
Kinda shows that aircraft need increase in engine power as much as possible, and that P-40s aerodynamics were still competitive in 1944-45, even if engines left a lot to be desired on serial-produced examples.
Neither of the Grummans' A/C, nor Corsairs, nor P-38 or P-47, nor the listed German A/C, nor Soviet, nor most of Japanese A/C featured bleeding-edge aerodynamics in 1944, let alone in 1945.