Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....? (5 Viewers)

[renrich]

What I said was in a one V one that did not depend on range I would prefer some other fighters over the Mustang. Look at the sortie numbers versus losses of the P47 and the P51. The leading aces in the 8th flew P47s. And that was against more experienced LW pilots earlier in the war. Those facts along with along with performance comparisons that are a matter of record convince me that I would rather be in a P47 than in a P51 in a one V one. The F4U4 was a hot rod and out performed the P51 in most ways, faster,better climber, better maneuverability, more armament and because it was more rugged, much more survivable. Kris, I have never flown in combat and I doubt you have. I have flown an airplane some but all I have to go on is what I have read and common sense.

 

[davparlr]

Well Jank, if I was in Europe in WW2 and confined to the A/C in that theater, I would go for the latest P47 or if short range is not a problem the MkXIV Spitfire. The FW190D9 would be attractive. If I had my choice of any WW2 fighter, the F4U4 would be my choice.

F4U-4 was an excellent warplane. The P-47 is at a disadvantage to the equivalent model P-51 below 25k ft in airspeed, climb, and most likely turning ability. It was more rugged and had more firepower, but the P-51 could engage and disengage at will. Above 25k, the P-47 was formidable.

My choice would be the P-51B with a Malcolm (?) hood until late 1944. During this period, the P-51B was faster than any enemy (or friendly) aircraft and was a better climber (except the early P-51Bs vs. Bf-109G in climb. Later P-51Bs were better climbers and was comparible to the Fw-190D-9 in total performance). I would have wanted two additional 50 cals. though. In late 1944, I would switch to the F4U-4.

 

[Civettone]

Could you explain what you meant by the following statement: "P-51 is overrated as it wasn't the fighter that defeated the Luftwaffe as often claimed."

Sure.
What you usually read is that the Luftwaffe was defeated when P-51s started to escort the B-17s over Germany.
While I agree that the Luftwaffe was defeated during what is called Big Week, most of the fighters were P-38s. So if one aircraft one it, it would be the P-38.

My Sig you ask? I have it not b/c I have some great love for the P-51. It is historic and belongs to the city where I live.

So what's the story behind it? It gather it was a squadron based in Winnipeg?

Kris

 

[Jank]

Adler posed the following interesting comment on the FW-190 vs. Spit / P-51 / P-47 thread on 8/16/06:

There was an interesting documentary on the N24 a German documentary and news TV channel about the Fw-190. They talked about the development and the Butcher Bird in action. They interviewed several members of the Wilde Sau unit and several other Luftwaffe units. The show is coming back on TV tonight and I will have to watch it again for names of the pilots. They also interviewed several USAAF pilots who flew against the Fw-190.

All of the Luftwaffe pilots had these things to say about the allied aircraft.

They said the Spitfire was a superb aircraft and in straight up one on one fighting they were more scared of the Spitfire than the P-51D. The one they really did not like flying against though was the P-47. They said it was a very hard aircraft to take down and a worthy opponent.

One USAAF pilot (name not remembered until I watch the documentary again tonight) who flew all 3 of the mentioned allied aircraft said he really enjoyed flying the Spitfire. He said it was easy and a joy to fly. The P-51D on the other hand he said he did not enjoy very much. He said the only advantage it had over the Fw-190 and even the Bf-109 was its long range, saying it was especially hard to get the upper hand of the Fw-190D-9 with a P-51D.

The one that he preferred to fight the Fw-190 in was the P-47 due to its heavy armament and good armour and robust engine.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

While I agree that the Luftwaffe was defeated during what is called Big Week, most of the fighters were P-38s. So if one aircraft one it, it would be the P-38.

That should make wtmaxt happy and I never thought of it that way before!

I think of all the enemy aircraft the Americans encountered, the Zero was possibly the one they feared and overated the most, with perhaps good reason in 1941-42. But a lot of the fear was on the Zero being invincible, which in the end wasn't true.

For the British I know the FW-190A got them pretty scared during the Spitfire Vb phrase. But was that really the plane the Brits feared the most? Was it the V1 rocket?

The British overated the Spitfire in the Battle of Britain, a foregivable fault, except to the ire of the Hawker Hurricane Pilots. The B-17 was similarly praised while the B-24 overlooked as the workhorse.

The USAF bomber crews were pretty scared of the Komets, before they found out that they were just a nuisance.

Hitler overated most of his aircraft and flying bombs.

I guess the plane we American's overated the most would be the Mustang, especially as the years have gone after WWII.

Did the Germans and Japanese really overate it that much during the time?

Goring was scared of it over Berlin, but by then he had no choice. The Mustang was flying overhead and defending the Bombers from harm.

So, I'll go for the Zero as most overated during the war years, and the Mustang for the post WWII years.

 

[Hunter368]

Sure.
What you usually read is that the Luftwaffe was defeated when P-51s started to escort the B-17s over Germany.
While I agree that the Luftwaffe was defeated during what is called Big Week, most of the fighters were P-38s. So if one aircraft one it, it would be the P-38.


So what's the story behind it? It gather it was a squadron based in Winnipeg?

Kris

Well I can't honestly agree with you on the P-38 bringing the LW to its knees.


Yes the P-51 squadron was from Winnipeg, I found it and used the photo. I rather like the black and white image.

Classic feel to me.

 

[Hunter368]

Goring was scared of it over Berlin, but by then he had no choice. The Mustang was flying overhead and defending the Bombers from harm.

He would of been scared of any enemy fighter flying over Berlin in numbers that surpased his own total of fighters defending Berlin. Who wouldn't be, so it was not so much the fact it was the "P-51" he feared so much as the fact that some enemy fighter could actually reach Berlin and surpased in numbers his own defending fighter protection.

He then knew that USA production of bombers and fighters were going to destroy his beloved LW. Not to mention it made him eat crow and look like an azz.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Agreed Hunter.

But Lord help your wallet when it breaks.

But the Mustang was fairly cheap to build and it wasn't that hard to maintain. Only issue is if it got shot down a lot, then it's large numbers of aircraft are pretty useless. But the Mustang was tough enough to survive in the sky, agains't the cannon and bullet of enemy fighters, even when it didn't outnumber them.

Flak was a danger to the Mustang, more than the P-47. The Mustang pilots did try to avoid straffing runs, aside from airfields and targets deep in Germany that only they could get to at the time.

One shudders to think what the LW could have accomplished with the Zero during the BOB.

But the Hawker Hurricane had a fine turn rate, and the Spitfire MK I was equal to the Zero. Both of them were more sturdy too. The Zero would have been able to stay over England longer than the Bf 109, but it was more fragile.

Of course. But you see, I interpreted this poll as WW2 aircraft which are overrated NOW.

Good point. The Mustang is still being praised, while the 110 or P-39 are forgotten or given the contempt they may not deserve.

But I think the Spitfire still has a respectable following of fans today, though a lot of them are British!

 

[GregP]

The posts above mostly say "History" has overrated the P-51. Could I ask what, specifically, you think is overrated?

I chose 9 aircraft operated by the USAAF to comapre statistics between from 1942 to 1945, specifically in the European war. Remember, these were aircraft operated by the U.S.A.


1) P-47: 423,435 sorties (45.7%), Air Kills Claimed: 3,082 (28.8%)
2) P-51: 213,873 sorties (23.1%), Air Kills Claimed: 4,950 (46.2%)
3) P-38: 129.849 sorties (14.0%), Air Kills Claimed: 1,771 (16.5%)
4) P-40: 67,059 sorties (7.2%), Air Kills Claimed: 481 (4.5%)
5) P-39: 30,547 sorties (3.3%), Air Kills Claimed: 14 (0.1%)
6) Spitfire: 28,981 sorties (3.1%), Air Kills Claimed: 256 (2.4%)
7) A-36: 23,373 sorties (2.5%), Air Kills Claimed: 84 (0.8%)
8 ) Beaufighter: 6,706 sorties (0.7%), Air Kills Claimed: 24 (0.2%)
9) P-61: 3,637 sorties (0.4%), Air Kills Claimed: 58 (0.5%)

Total: 927,460 sorties, 10,720 claimed air to air kills.

The P-51 flew 23% of all our combat sorties and accounted for 46% of the kills, almost twice as many as the P-47, which saw longer service. Remember, P-51s didn't GET there until around 1943.

Overrated? By whom? Not by the USAAF!

And there weren't hardly ANY F4U Corsairs in Europe operated by the U.S.A., so it would have been VERY tough to find an F4U-4 in the ETO in any case.

The press, at least in the U.S.A., touted the P-51 as our best in the ETO because it was as factually demonstrated.

I ask again for what, specifically, you think was overrated for the P-51, and by whom?

When the P-51 had its biggest impact, the first escorted missions over Germany, exactly what alternative fighter(s) would you suggest that were available at the time with the range to fly a complete escort mission? I mean complete missions, without abandoning the bombers part-way over, as had been the practice before the P-51s got there?

Exactly when in the war do you think any other Allied fighter could have taken over from the P-51, and in what numbers? If the late-model, longer-range Spitfires are suggested by someone, how many were available? And were sufficient drop tanks available for them to allow the replacement of the P-51s? If you say "Yes," were sufficient drop tanks available even after several missions where the tanks were actually dropped?

If you say "Yes" again, would you have turned over the defense of Great Britain to the P-51 and the Americans so the Spitrfires of the RAF could escort the bombers to Germany? If we had even requested that, would you have agreed? If agreed to, would the person who agreed have been relieved of command?

I know a lot of people chose the P-51 as overrated. I'm just asking for specifics so I can understand your viewpoint beyond national pride.

I admit the P-51 got accolades. I just can't see that they were undeserved given the complete lack of alternative choices for the P-51 in its assigned role.

I might very well prefer to be in a Spitfire over Berlin, but not if if meant running out of fuel over occupied Europe on the way home and being captured ... in THAT case, give me a P-51 and THANK you very much.

I KNOW many of you feel otherwise. Please explain so I may share your viewpoints.

Cheers.

 

[Civettone]

Like I said the P-51 was the best fighter over Germany until late 1944, and arguably until the very end.

But I said that the P-38 was the main American fighter during Big Week, and not the P-51.

It seems I was wrong.

The claim/loss stats for Operation Argument (Big Week) :

Claims by Group, aircraft type and total claims. Includes 60 ground kills
(enemy aircraft destroyed on ground).


56th FG P-47 52
354th FG P-51 45
357th FG P-51 21
78th FG P-47 19
4th FG P-51 16
352nd FG P-47 14
353rd FG P-47 11
20th FG P-38 8
355th FG P-47 8
361st FG P-47 8
359th FG P-47 7
55th FG P-38 2
356th FG P-47 1
362nd FG P-47 1
______________________________________
Total 213 / 153 air to air


Kills by type: Air / Ground


P-51 49 / 33
P-47 94 / 27
P-38 10 / 0


Losses: these include losses from all causes, including accidents, engine
failures and so on.


357th FG P-51 8
53rd FG P-47 5
354th FG P-51 3
20th FG P-38 3
358th FG P-47 2
361st FG P-47 2
55th FG P-38 2
4th FG P-51 2
56th FG P-47 1
78th FG P-47 1
356th FG P-47 1
359th FG P-47 1
362nd FG P-47 1
_____________________________
Total 32


Loss break down by type:


P-51 11 3 lost to accident/unknown
P-47 16 3 lost to accident/unknown
P-38 5 2 lost to accident/unknown
Accident/unknown indicates that the aircraft failed to return to base
and the loss was do to accidental crash, mechanical failure or unknown
causes (most likely triple A over German airfields) .


Total lost to Luftwaffe: 24


Air to air kill/loss rate by type excluding accidental/unknown losses:


P-51 6.125/1
P-47 7.230/1
P-38 3.333/1


Total number of each type available on average during Big Week.


P-51 140
P-47 710
P-38 74


Mission abort ratios by type: These include any cause that prevents an
aircraft from flying the full scheduled mission.


P-51 16% avg.
P-47 4% avg.
P-38 31% avg.


Typically, 23 P-38 aircraft would abort each mission based upon 100%
availability. 22 P-51 aircraft could be expected to turn around, and 28
P-47's had to head back for various mechanical reasons. Over the course
of the war, the P-51 abort ratio would be better than halved, down to 7%.
The P-38's deployed in the SWPA Theater averaged a 7% abort ratio as
well. The Lightning did not get better than 10% in the ETO until the arrival
of the P-38J-25-LO and the L model. By then, these fighters were exclusively
used by the 9th Air Force. However, in Feb/March 1944, the 8th AF had only
just received the P-38J-15-LO which suffered at high altitude from over
efficient radiators/coolers and sub-standard fuel, which would have the
anti-knock compounds separate in the boosted intake plenum. The net
result was burned pistons. Better grade fuels and a redesigned intake manifold
cured these problems, albeit, too late for the 8th AF Brass.


It must also be noted that with the exception of one mission, the P-38 groups
were required to remain in close escort, tied to the bombers. Hence, their
score is more a reflection of limited opportunity than any lack of performance
and ability. Note also, the P-47 maintained the best kill ratio of the three
during Big Week.
(by C.C. Jordan)

Kris

 

[GregP]

What exactly is "Big Week?" That's a new one on me ...

Where did you get your statistics?Mine were from "American Combat Planes."

 

[Jank]

"What exactly is "Big Week?" That's a new one on me ..."

That was funny. Or sad.

The P-47 in large part broke the Luftwaffe's back after which the sexy P-51 came on the scene in droves and took all the credit.

 

[amrit]

I'm sorry to be pedantic but could someone please change a spelling mistake in the poll - Stirling rather than Sterling (not much British money flying around during the war )

Cheers

 

[Heinz]

zero for me...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm sorry to be pedantic but could someone please change a spelling mistake in the poll - Stirling rather than Sterling (not much British money flying around during the war )

Cheers

Done....

 

[davparlr]

What exactly is "Big Week?" That's a new one on me ...

Where did you get your statistics?Mine were from "American Combat Planes."

If that is by Wagner, I have found it to be a very good reference book. What errors I have found have been errors accepted by the press in general.

I am not familar with "Big Week" either. Of course, at my age, I could have been familar with in and forgot!

 

[Civettone]

Are you guys kidding me?

Big Week - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The operation lasted a week but in fact the attacks went on until April. After that the Luftwaffe would never recover.
Kris

 

[Hunter368]

Are you guys kidding me?

Big Week - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The operation lasted a week but in fact the attacks went on until April. After that the Luftwaffe would never recover.
Kris

keep in mind Kris not everyone is as knowledgable as the rest of us on WW2, some people are still learning.

Go easy on them.

 

[Civettone]

I honestly thought that question was meant as a joke. GregP gave a detailed account of WW2 fighters, then I would expect he had at least heard of Big Week.
Also see Jank's comment: That was funny. Or sad.

Kris

 

[Hunter368]

I honestly thought that question was meant as a joke. GregP gave a detailed account of WW2 fighters, then I would expect he had at least heard of Big Week.
Also see Jank's comment: That was funny. Or sad.

Kris

Patience

Just explain