need help identifying the 109

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by bobbysocks, Apr 19, 2010.

  1. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    i am looking to paint a particular 109 and need to know more about the paint scheme or the group/squadron markings. as to what model 109 i am ubable say at this time but i may be able to get s screen shot from camera footage later. But the AC is a 109 and was flying SE of Magdeburg on Mar 2, 1945. the AC is described as having a black and white barber pole nose and a bluish/ gray paint job. it had a large red stripe and a yellow one on each side and a big #7 on the fuselage. thats all i have at this point.
     
  2. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    The nose spiral was common, and so was that colour scheme. What is of importance are the coloured bands - are those colours correct? I have reference to II/ JG2 with Yellow-White-Yellow bands, and JG 301 with Yellow- Red, but no Yellow- Red -Yellow...
    I think Wayne or Erich are the ones to ask here.
     
  3. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    #3 bobbysocks, Apr 19, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2010
    got the colors from a report so am pretty sure they are correct but....who knows in the heat of the moment. that is why i tried to put location, date and as much info as possible. and as i believe just one stripe of each color...one yellow and one red. how they were configured...horizontal or vertical i am unable to say.
     
  4. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    I found something similar to your description on a booklet called "Profile no. 113" printed in 1972
    The aircraft has a typical 74/75/76 colour scheme with a black and white nose (no spiral) and a large yellow band with a red band in the middle. The individual number is red with white outline.
    The caption of this profile states that this machine was a BF 109 G-6 belonging to 8 Staffel, JG 77 "Herzas"
    I personally doubt that the latter is correct because "Herzas" meand has of hearths while the emblem shown on the fuselage is wolf head inside of a shield.
    In any case, if you are interested, I can scan this page tomorrow and add it to the post.
    Just let me know
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  5. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    yes, please i am interested.
     
  6. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    OK,
    here is the page where that profile is shown
    [​IMG]
    and the captions:
    [​IMG]
    I think there are no doubts that the caption for number one is incorrect, see for example here

    Jagdgeschwader 77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The red bar in the middle of the yellow one could be a simplified number 1 but, it the author did that profile he must have had a picture to refer to.
    I tried to find on books in my hands which was the Jagde having the wolf head as emblem, but I didn't found anything.
    I also like to post the second part of profiles
    [​IMG]
    with relevant
    [​IMG]
    Number 11 has a red-yellow-red band ...
    Finally, for those who aren't yet aware, I suggest a site where to find information on many WW2 airforce units, German but also American, British and others.
    Unit├ęs
    I hope the above will be of some help.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  7. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Because the LW planes wore a great variety of camo schemes it can be quite difficult to say where the machine was from. I think the best solution is to see the screen shot of the camera footage.
     
  8. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    #8 Erich, Apr 20, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2010
    could be a G-19 from IV./JG 301 the whole gruppen got slaughtered on the date you mentioned and in fact never flew again.

    13 G-10's [possibly more] lost most near Burg NW of Magdeburg by P-51's.

    Yellow 7 was shot down near Stresow which is east of Burg.

    JG 300 machines should all be wearing blue/white/blue fuselage bands
     
  9. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Bobbysocks

    had to go back in my data files on this date, yes the 357th fg may have taken on a couple 109's outside of the Burg area that were able to get free from the 78th fg Mustangs that shot the gruppe up over Burg airfield. I'd be curious if this film can be viewed as a still or ? love to see the crate - 109.

    the Blue nosers 352nd took on the Fw's of which there were not many of the II./JG 301 a mix of A-9's and Dora-9's and blew them away.
     
  10. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    No such luck viewing the film(dvd). :cry: looked last night. the film for that date must have really sucked for it not to be included. which really dissapoints me because on that same day they strafed a hidden field and found out the 4 AC dad had as ground kills were 2 sets of mistels ( according the Peterson's report)! i will dig further...and actually view the film itself once i get a hold of a 16mm projector. the guy who copied it onto dvd for my dad may have omitted it for some reason or on purpose. but still the film is B&W so all you will see is a black/gray 109. i appreciate all the help you guys are giving me.
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    even in b/w it can be somewhat determined for markings D ~ if indeed yellow/red marking it will be very apparent and all of the G-10's of IV. gruppe were marked this way,

    if you find it scan it enlarged to a point of non-degradation if you have the time and possibility
     
  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Yep Erich is right.
     
  13. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    I think I must clarify the mess I did with with my previous post.
    So here following is what that I learned after checking with some Luftwaffe experts on an Italian forum:
    The profile I posted is effectively related to III Gruppe of JG.77 and by early 1945 was based in Beneschau.
    The wolf head was the symbol of the III Gruppe.

    But it is unlikely that this profile is applicable to your machine.

    Based on latest info I got, on that specific period, only the IV Staffel of JG 301 was still flying some BF 109.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  14. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    IV./JG 301 was created to be a high altitude gruppe for the heavier Fw 190gruppen of JG 301. it never got it's chance. due to the inexperience of it's members including the C.O.s the 109's were shot out of the sky repeatedly. The unit was outfitted with Bf 109G-10's from the very start until disbanded after the March 2, 1945 disaster. In effect the gruppe was worthless to JG 301 except in a fatal way as a magnet for US fighter groups in the area.
     
  15. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    i hope that date is on the film. if so i will copy it to a digital media and do the best i can....maybe take a screen shot of it on the projector screen with another camera.

    al49 i was thinking it was the first AC in your post but then i saw where it was stationed andthen had doubts...unless they shifted it from the eastern front to re-enforce or replace dwindling forces.
     
  16. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Hi bobbysocks,
    if you will be able to get these screen shots done, I will forward to an Italian forum also frequented by experts like Ferdinando D'Amico who wrote several books on WW2 Axis aeroplanes including the following:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I'm pretty confident that they will do their best to help.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  17. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    After reading Erich's comments, It occurred to me that if that report was based on the B/w gun camera footage, then the 'Red/Yellow/ Red' bands could well in fact have been Blue/ White/ Blue as he mentioned...
     
  18. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    If the DVD will play on your PC, you can take a screen shot by pressing the "Print Screen" button on your keyborad. This will save the image to your clipboard where you can then open a graphic program and 'paste' into a new pic. I do it all the time for difficult images.
     
  19. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    well guys if this has anything to do with Bobbysocks Father and his 357th fg then it is either a 109G from JG 300 or JG 301 as mentioned earlier. JG 77 was being pursued in another area by another US fighter group
     
  20. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    no it wasnt based on the camera footage...that was the description of the colors on the combat report.

    yea erich...was the only plane my dad described in detail. everytthing else was just listed as a 109, 190...etc

    thanks al49. my son has a 16mm projector that i am going to try to borrow this weekend.

    thanks to everyone....
     
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