Ordinary German's Responsibility for the Holocaust?

[Soren]

And that would make it any better?

Adler, the point was that they weren't murdered in cold blood, they starved to death because the Wehrmacht simply had no way to feed them. So there's a difference. Wether one is better than the other, well I'll let you decide that for yourself.

And please, this axe you seem to have to grind with me, tell it outright already, and relieve me of this constant unjust hammering of yours, it is really beginning to bug me. But since you in an openly mocking manner insinuated that I am of the opinion that I know more than you, please provide proof to this accusation. I believe I have treated you with nothing but dignity and respect, I ask only the same in return.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I get that feeling when reading many of the fine biographies and histories of Germany in WWII. I do not hardly get the sense of shame for fighting for one of the most evil regimes in history but only regret that the war was lost. I read some accounts that show the authors or subjects to have feelings of guilt but it is mostly not genuinely felt. One gets the feeling in many instances where they display feelings of pain for losing the war.

As long as a particular soldier did not commit a war crime or take part in one, I do not feel they should be shamed for fighting for their country. That is what every soldier does, whether they agree with the regime or not.

A soldier who served honorably should never feel shame for his service. I am even proud of my grandfathers service in the Wehrmacht in WW2, just as much as I am proud of my American grandfathers in the US Army in WW2.

Again an honorable soldier should not feel shame for his service.

I agre completely. My assessment is purely clinical with no emotion injected into the conversation. I cannot hate the Germans as a people. My opinion is that the world has changed in many ways and it is too easy to make quick judgements on such a subject. Especially when the subject is so faceted and has so many qualifiers such as age, location, education and numerous other possibilities. Based on todays standards they seem to be a wicked people for the treatment of the Jewish people as well as other undesirables, but then again every nation has gone through some dark times including my own. I cannot judge the Germans or Japanese as a people for the war because they lived in a totalarian society but I can only give my opinion on actions.

I can understand and agree with what you are saying.

And please, this axe you seem to have to grind with me, tell it outright already, and relieve me of this constant unjust hammering of yours, it is really beginning to bug me. But since you in an openly mocking manner insinuated that I am of the opinion that I know more than you, please provide proof to this accusation. I believe I have treated you with nothing but dignity and respect, I ask only the same in return.

Just go back and read the PM that I sent your yesterday or the day before.

 

[parsifal]

I didnt grow up i germany, but as I said, I have a father (well step father, who is a proud German and served in the wehrmacht during wwii). He was a machine gunner, and served at Stalingrad, Kursk and in many of the various battles on the southern front. He categorically states that it was common knowledge that things were happening, and that nearly all the soldiers serving in the forces knew about it. Moreover the wehrmacht was complicit in a large number of war crimes, and not just death by neglect, though that was a favourite tactic. Many of the Soviet deaths were by shooting, as the largest single massacre that I know of, just south of Lvov, by regulars of the wehrmacht, clearly demonstrates.

For those who would like to think about this a bit more , here are some bits and pieces from the net that may assist in understanding the case against the wehrmacht.

War crimes of the Wehrmacht - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The Wehrmacht: history, myth, reality - Google Book Search


War crimes of the Wehrmacht


The Holocaust in the letters of German soldiers on the Eastern front (1939-44) - Journal of Genocide Research


German Crimes Against Soviet Prisoners-of-War in Poland. Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. 1946

War Crimes and Criminals

I do not claim that this is a systematic or comphrehensive account, you need to do a lot more detailed research to do that, but it is unequivocally proven that the wehrmacht participated in a very large number of massacres.

After the war there was an international commission that looked into various German institions,and judged whether they were immoral organizations or not. I forget the exact teminology that was applied, but essentially the SS was found to be ammoral, but the wehrmacht was not, however the commission noted at the time the strong likelihood of wehrmacht complicity and particiaption in avery large number of massacres and other attrocities.

People can judge for themselves in this, but the official findings of the international community, as exemplified at the Nuremberg trials, was that Germany was guilty of waging an aggressive and illegal war, and that with that there were many travesties of common decency and attrocities. Most of the perpetrators of those attrocities have never been made to account, though the principal perpetrators have long since faced justice.

Now, did the allies and the Soviets engage in illegal behaviour. You bet they did, but the difference is fundamentally this....whereas the allied incidents were still illegal under their legal and military codes, the murders undertaken by the Germans were institutionalised, and more disturbing, supported by many. In the case of the Soviets, there is a slight mitigation of circumstance for them, since they were not signatories to the Geneva convention until 1949, and did not recognize its jurisprudence until that time. The majority of German POWs that were murdered by the Soviets occurred 1944-7, as the full extent of German attrocities became appararent, after the adoption of the Geneva convention the surviving 40% of German POWs were treated better than they hadd previously

 

[Amsel]

I wonder why Soviet war crimes are no big deal. If there was a poll for most evil regime I would put Stalin as the grand champion of homocide.

 

[Matt308]

Well based upon most overall deaths due to both regimes, it probably goes goes to Stalin. But subjectively, they are rather equally heinous aren't they. Good post Parsifal.

 

[Amsel]

Well based upon most overall deaths due to both regimes, it probably goes goes to Stalin. But subjectively, they are rather equally heinous aren't they. Good post Parsifal.

Heinous indeed. It's hard to believe that was not too long ago.

 

[Matt308]

What is most disturbing is that youth my kids age remember WWII like they remember Waterloo or Ghengis Khan. Sad really. And unfortunately, we are doomed to repeat it. I just hope I'm gone.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What is most disturbing is that youth my kids age remember WWII like they remember Waterloo or Ghengis Khan. Sad really. And unfortunately, we are doomed to repeat it. I just hope I'm gone.

I agree completely and I think it is a sad shame.

 

[Juha]

IMHO ordinary German's responsibly varied from person to person. IMHO an average Germans should have guessed that destiny of away transported Jews would not be too nice but it would have been difficult to guess how cruel it was. The enormity of holocaust was something unprecedented in modern times and it was and still is difficult to accept that one's own state behave utterly amorally. On the other hand those who lived near concentration camps or those who knew that millions were transported Auschwitz-Birkenau etc and almost nobody away from there should have guessed that something very sinister was happening. Also discussions between high ranking officer PoWs, which were recorded by British showed that at least many of them knew on murders of PoWs and Jews in the East.

Finnish SS-men saw war crimes from late June 41 onwards, in fact they were in opinion that the killings were most common during first weeks. Finns were really disgusted on behaviour of Germans and saw mass murders of PoWs and civilians, especially chances of Jews to being shot out of hand was high.

On Soviet war crimes, they were victors and the world isn't perfect so the got away of it.

Juha

 

[vikingBerserker]

The truly sad part to me is look how many more times something like this has happened since WWII.

 

[Soren]

Some facts to consider are these:

The Soviet armed forces, which didn't comply with the rules of the geneva convention, treated German POWs even worse than the Germans treated Soviet POWs, often castrating, cutting off ears and poking out the eyes of captured German soldiers. After this the German soldiers were left for dead later to be found by their comrades. THIS resulted in revengeful retributions such as the massacre of POWs as-well as the burnings of several villages. That is war, and war is hell!

Now as for the treatment of Soviet POWs, it wasn't good by any means, but it needs to be noted that ~90% of all Soviet prisoners who died under the custody of the Wehrmacht did so of starvation, and that because of the simple fact that there was no way of feeding them. In short they were not murdered or massacred, they were left to starve to death as this was the only option, that or send them back to reenlist in the Soviet army, so again no choice.

And finally, the murder of the jews was NOT supported by the German population, the general public in no way being aware of the horrorfying things being committed in the camps. Now obviously rumors as always slipped out, and some people knew that something wrong was going on, but nearly no'one knew about the true extent of things. Fact is that most Germans knew absolutely nothing about the systematic murder of jews in concentration camps, and had they known about it then the war would've been a short one. Hitler knew that, hence why so much was done to keep it a secret, cause if the public found out he knew his troops would stop fighting and him and his party would be history.

One simply cannot get a whole country to fight for something they don't believe in, unless the truth is kept away from them and they're tricked into it, which is exactly what Hitler did, he tricked an entire country into war. Mankind in general will always strive for what it believes to be the right and good thing to do, not evil. The German army was even supported by the catholic church, and every German soldier had written on his belt buckle 'Gott Mit Uns' or 'God With Us', as a symbol that god was on their side.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

The truly sad part to me is look how many more times something like this has happened since WWII.

It's the ugly side of human nature. Unfortunately, those who do not learn about the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Colin1]

Some facts to consider are these...

I had no idea of the specifics of the savagery meted out by Germans on Russian POWs and vice versa, it's sobering stuff.
I tend to agree with most of what you say, I would reinforce your point concerning the average German civilian by saying that within a totalitarian system like Nazism, it wouldn't be too clever to

i. go poking your nose in and
ii. protesting about it, vociferously or otherwise

as you'd be likely to join the victims of the very attrocities you're protesting about.

As regards the belt-buckle motif carried by German soldiers, well, how many armies (throughout history) went into battle convinced that God was on their side? Hardest-hitting example I guess would be The Crusades and how futile a claim was it in the case of, say, the Sixth Army during the last days of Stalingrad?

German soldiers bunkered down wherever they could find shelter, who were too exhausted by numbing cold and malnutrition to even step out and pick up admittedly rare air-dropped supplies, were highly unlikely to be wondering when God was going to show up and turn things around for them.

 

[Juha]

Soren
1) Finns seemed to think that shooting of PoWs by German soldiers were more common in early days, that weakened the revenge theory. Yes, there were also Soviet atrocities in those early days and some killing were clearly revenges to Soviet atrocities.

2) Finns were really appalled how some, in fact rather many ordinary German soldiers handled and murdered Jews regardless their age or sex. What was writtten to soldiers belt buckles didn't seem to have effect on their behavior.

Juha

 

[Soren]

Colin,

The belt buckle was pure propoganda, a way of convincing the troops that they were fighting for a good cause.

One needs to consider that in all wars waged in history every military will try to demonize its' enemies, and this to ensure that its' soldiers will be effective against the enemy and not hesitate to kill the enemy if they get the chance. If a military didn't do this it simply couldn't effectively wage a war, cause soldiers absolutely need to know that they are fighting for a rightous cause, otherwise moral will quickly plumit and the soldiers will eventually refuse to fight. This also explains the rough treatment POWs often got, nomatter where they were incarcerated. To the average German the Soviets were terrorists, rapists etc etc, the Nazi government pretty much made it sure that the average German saw the Soviets almost as monsters. Now most people knew better ofcourse, but they still saw the Soviet Union as an evil empire (They weren't all wrong about that either!) just waiting to pounce on Germany as soon as it got a chance, and the public therefore fully supported the invasion in 1941.

 

[GrauGeist]

Here's a quote by Lutheran Pastor Niemoller that pretty much sums it up:

In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic.
Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Here's a quote by Lutheran Pastor Niemoller that pretty much sums it up:

A-fricken-Men!

 

[RabidAlien]

Who was it that said "the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"?

Some thoughts of my own, late at nite...

1. Atrocities were committed on both sides of the lines. Allied and Axis. If Germany had won, we would be reading about the evils the Soviets committed, instead of vice versa.

2. The average German knew something was going on. The rumor mill will ALWAYS fly faster and farther than the media/propaganda machine. So they knew. The extent of their knowledge will differ, but they knew.

3. By the time that the details were coming regularly enough that the average citizen could no longer discount them as fantasy/exaggeration, it was too late to speak up. They would have disappeared, too.

4. Hitler got as far as he did because, quite simply, he was brilliant. He didn't start off rounding up Jews. He started off by giving Germany back its pride. He restored its economy and military. He gave the average citizen a reason to walk around with their heads held high again. Germany has always been a proud, strong nation (ask any number of Roman emperors). The Treaty of Versailles took that from them, and left in its place a smoldering resentment. Hitler fanned that. Give them strength again, give them jobs and a strong economy...then slowly give them an enemy to turn their pent-up anger and frustrations on. Give them subtle radio/news clips that point them in the direction you want them to go...and when they realize where they're headed, its really too late.

5. The Wermacht troops, as well, may have known, to some extent, what was taking place with the Jews. But when the first shot's fired, the average grunt's viewpoint narrows to the portion of the line directly in front of him, and maybe a little to each side. Your world is your foxhole. You don't worry about what's happening to someone else as long as your foxhole is there and you've got a rifle. I read somewhere, as well, that the average German grunt wasn't encouraged to think for themselves overly much. Take initiative to win the battle, yes. Ponder politics? No.

I really should be asleep...

 

[parsifal]

Soren
1) Finns seemed to think that shooting of PoWs by German soldiers were more common in early days, that weakened the revenge theory. Yes, there were also Soviet atrocities in those early days and some killing were clearly revenges to Soviet atrocities.

2) Finns were really appalled how some, in fact rather many ordinary German soldiers handled and murdered Jews regardless their age or sex. What was writtten to soldiers belt buckles didn't seem to have effect on their behavior.

Juha

JUuha

Finland fought what I consider to be an honourable war. It is the only country in Europe that did not persecute any minority, and absolutely refused to hand over any Jews, foreign or nationals to the Nazis.

I particulalry remember one story of a particular member of the Finn army who saved the lives of more than ten German SS troopers, and was offered the iron cross as a reward by a th ankful German High Command. He turned it down, saying that as a Jew, he found it reward enough for SS men to owe their lives to someone they would otherwise despise.

All this talk of diminished German responsibility is untenable as a defence to German attrocities. For a start, it was germany who started the war, by invading country after country, not the other way around. In the case of the invasion of the USSR it was the Germans who started the indiscriminate massacre of prisoners, and further, codified that with the infamous "commissar order, and soon thereafter the Fuhrere directive that essentially lifted all moral responsibilities and sense of ethics from every GTerman soldier fighting on the eastern front. I dont recall the exact wording, but it stated something along the lines to fight and kill without mercy or pity, or sense of guilt about what they were doing. Germans were generally enthusiastic ihn their support for this illegal order, and carried it out with great enthusiasm. The result was at least 10 million Russian dead, avoidable deaths, not your average or unavoidable casualties of war. Germany embarked on a war of ethnic cleansing, which is a nice way of saying they murdered people indiscriminately.

Did the Russians respond to that, you bet they did, as the trail of murdered German soldiers across the battlefields of Eastern Europe demonstrate. The Russian nation is a proud country, and the war against the Nazis was not a war fought for the communists, or for Stalin.....it was a war of national liberation, of the defence of the motherland against an invader. And theres the rub.....the Russians were invaded, making the the germans the instigators of the trouble. Moreover, it was the Germans who started the mass killings. Why can I say this...because the Germans were massacreing prisoners and civilians from the very beginning long before the Russians had the chance or capability to do the same in reply. In June and July 1941 the numbers of German prisoners being captured by the Russians was insignificant, whereas the numbers of Russians (soldiers and civilians) being capturedm numbered in the millions. It was the Germans who had official orders to commit murder, it was the germans who invaded country after country without even bothering to declare war (the only exception to this being the German DOW against the United States), it was the Germans who even stabbed their erstwhile allies in the back, and lied and cheated to everyone they had dealings with, time after time after time.......

And what of the common man, what is his responsibility in all of this. They do have to shoulder a portion of the burden of guilt. It started in 1933, with the election ofa regime that clearly was ammoral and not interested in the rule of law. To try and say that the German nation was duped is utter rubbish. They knew what Hitler was, and decided to seel their souls for thirty pieces of silver regardless. Why???? Well in the case of the anti-semitism it was because most Germans agreed with Hitler, Jews were seen as one of the root causes to Germany's trouble, the 5th column that sneakily stabbed Germany in the back, and robbed her of her victory in 1918. That this is totally baseless is clear now, but the germans allowed their innate prejudices get the better of them, and the final solution was the logical outgrowth of that

Every German soldier bears a portion of war guilt as well, by the oath of fealty they made to Adolf Hitler personally, and not to the German State. This was not a minor or obscure emantic use of words. At the time it was seen for waht it was, an abject promise to do what was in the interest of Adolf Hitler, and not what was best for the country, or what was right and just. A soldiers job is to protect his country, not a particular individual, and most people saw the oath to Hitler for what is actually was

When I ponder this subject I always think of John Donnes famous poem , as made famous in by Ernest Hemingway's book bearing the same name

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

Never a more true word than for germany were these words spoken

 

[Juha]

Hello Parsifal
It's generally true, that we protected foreign Jews here, but there were a few regretful exceptions. Of course Jews born here had same rights as other Finns and they served their country as other Finns and some paid the ultimate price for that.

On eastern front, Germany was the invader, who started the killing of PoWs, I don't know, I know that there were at least some cases of Soviets killing German PoWs very early on. A couple cases which came into mind. one PzD lost a platoon from its Recon Battalion very early in the war, most were shot after they had surrendered, some might being mutilated, I cannot remember all details, Germans also came across murdered bodies of those LW crew members shot down on the first day of Barbarossa.

But Hitler had made clear to top WM officers already in March 41 that extreme brutality was necessary in Russia proper and the intelligentsia educated during Stalin's time had to be destroyed. I see commissar order as a part of this plan. And Lebensraum rhetoric tells the rest.

On average German's responsibility, as I wrote early, I think it varies from person to person. Hitler's platform in 1933 wasn't extermination of Jews, gipsies etc even if there were hints to that direction, so I'd not put too much weight on Germans voting behaviour. Of course in democracy one pays the price of the policies of the state and has some responsibility because of that. But usually many things influence voting decision. Much more important is what Germans felt and what they did during the next 12 years. Prosecution of Jews was open from early on, anti-semitic laws, crystal night , beatings of Jews, forcing them to use the star of David and then deportation of them. Germans knew, most of those who lived at nazi time are already dead, themselves what they felt and did at that time and had clear or burdened conscience on that, I'd leave it for that but those actively participating killings. Germany had paid large sums to Jews and Israel as compensations probably also to others, don't know that for sure, especially I don't know have they compensated to Soviet PoWs and slave workers.

Juha