Ordinary German's Responsibility for the Holocaust?

[marshall]

I don't know much about knowledge of ordinary Germans that lived 60-70 years ago, but I found this:

Amazon.com: What We Knew: Terror, Mass Murder, and Everyday Life in Nazi Germany: Eric A. Johnson, Karl-Heinz Reuband: Books

I don't want to advertise this book (because that's probably against the rules) but reading only the reviews can give something to think about. And if someone's really interested in topic he or she can buy or borrow this book.

 

[vikingBerserker]

That is not true, Concentration Camps were all over Germany proper. There is a former camp only about 30 km from where I live now. I visited one of the most notorious ones at Bergen Belsen. Also have you heard of Dachau? It is just outside of Munich.

Yup you're right, I stand corrected.

 

[davebender]

Near the end of the war many were transferred from eastern camps to camps within Germany to continue with the mass killings as long as possible. Several hundred thousand Jews were killed in camps within Germany's borders.

If they wanted to continue killing camp inmates they would not have gone to the trouble of moving them to a new camp. Just shoot the prisoners and abandon the camp before the enemy arrives.

Towards the end of the war many camp officials became afraid of post-war retribution. So they quit mass executions and made an attempt to transfer prisoners west. This did not go well mainly due to the break down in the German government after March 1945. Supplies did not always arrive and you didn't always know who was in charge. In the midst of this chaos some camps like Dachau had a cholera epidemic. In hindsight they would have done the prisoners a favor by leaving them in the original camps to be over run by the Red Army. That way sick prisoners don't have to undertake a forced march.

 

[renrich]

I would venture to say that Chris's post earlier about knowledge of the camps in Germany is the most accurate portrayal of the situation. Someone mentioned that Walter Cronkite stated that the German people lost control of the free press and that precipitated the problem. It is ironic that Cronkite may have said that. The news media, if it is free, reports "news" as it sees fit. I would guess that early in the Nazi party's climb to power the press, on the whole, supported Hitler because his goals were to restore Germany to a position of economic security. By the time it becme clear that the Nazis intended a dictatorship, the press could no longer report any but the government line. A lesson perhaps for future generations.

 

[parsifal]

Do not fall for the old chestnut that as an organization the Wehrmacht was blameless. The wehrmacht had almost as much blood on its hands, as an organization as the SS. As an example, 598000 Russians were captured in the Kiev enciclement. Within days over 200000 (yes thats two hundred thousand) had been slaughtered by the wehrmacht. There were more than 4.9 million Russian soldiers slaughterd in this way, with about half of them murdered directly by the Wehrmacht. There were another 6 million civilains murdered by the wehrmacht in Russia. There were countless massacres undertaken by the German army across Europe with no thought given to the rule of law, to the morality of it, or even the consequences of it. Germany is guilty of a traversty against humanity and this should never be forgotten. These are not my words, they are those of my father, who fought in the war . He is about the only German I know who is honest enough to admit they knew exactly what was happening, and he was just a corporal. For the record, he and his family helped to shelter and escape of a number of Jewish families living in Berlin during the war. They managed to get to Sweden that way. It is also pretty clear that the majority of senior officers knew very well what was happening, and supported it.

There was recently a documentary aired on local television, that looked into a prison camp for senior german officers and held in a camp in England, for the duration of the war.They were secretly recorded by the British intelligence services. Most were clearly indicating that they knew what was going on, and most also approved of it. The German officer corps represented the ultra conservative elements of germans society and believed wholeheartedly in the 5th column allegations made by the Nazis, namely that Germany had been stabbed in the back and that the Jews were at the centre of a worldwide conspiracy. Consequently many believed that society had to be rid of these devisive elements.

The trouble with making collective guilt allegations is that we become just as bad as the nazis if we engage in that. There were many Germans who did not know about the crimes, many who could do nothing, and many who tried to oppose Hitler. So, it is wrong to collectively hold Germans accountable. But it is also wrong to suggest that just a few were responsible. The Nazi regime was a popularly elected and supported regime, whose ideas were supported by many. There were many who actively participated in the crimes, some for nothing more than to participate in the state sponsored robbery of the victims.

For the record, German war guilt was well established after the war during the Nuremberg trials. i happen to support those findings. We should forgive what happened, but we should never forget

 

[Bernhart]

can't imagine that 95% didn't know, both my parents where in Holland and while both where children at the time they were aware that something bad was happening to the jews. My dad's family hid a family for almost 2 years, they knew the peanalty for doing so was death. mom remembers the round ups and if jews didn't cooperate or do as they were told being shot in the streets. she remebers several istances especially in 1944 when the allies were closing the germans stepped up the searches.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If they wanted to continue killing camp inmates they would not have gone to the trouble of moving them to a new camp. Just shoot the prisoners and abandon the camp before the enemy arrives.

Towards the end of the war many camp officials became afraid of post-war retribution. So they quit mass executions and made an attempt to transfer prisoners west. This did not go well mainly due to the break down in the German government after March 1945. Supplies did not always arrive and you didn't always know who was in charge. In the midst of this chaos some camps like Dachau had a cholera epidemic. In hindsight they would have done the prisoners a favor by leaving them in the original camps to be over run by the Red Army. That way sick prisoners don't have to undertake a forced march.

There are several reasons why they were moved. It is however known that Hitler gave orders to continue with the killings inside of Germany's borders.

I would venture to say that Chris's post earlier about knowledge of the camps in Germany is the most accurate portrayal of the situation. Someone mentioned that Walter Cronkite stated that the German people lost control of the free press and that precipitated the problem. It is ironic that Cronkite may have said that. The news media, if it is free, reports "news" as it sees fit. I would guess that early in the Nazi party's climb to power the press, on the whole, supported Hitler because his goals were to restore Germany to a position of economic security. By the time it becme clear that the Nazis intended a dictatorship, the press could no longer report any but the government line. A lesson perhaps for future generations.

That is 100% true. I remember my Grandmother telling me that they could only listen to state sponsored radio and that all the "radio jockies" were nazi party members and only talked the party line.

By the way interesting side note. My Grandmother has a permanent dent in her forehead after she was hit in the head with a rifle butt after trying to give food and water to Jewish prisoners on a train. She worked for the Red Cross at the time.

The Nazi regime was a popularly elected and supported regime, whose ideas were supported by many.

I think we have to look at how and why the Nazi party came to power. I 100% believe that if most people knew what was going to happen, they would not have voted for the party. It is easy to choose who to vote for, when you economy is ruins, life sucks and a certain someone makes promises and keeps some of them in the beginning.

can't imagine that 95% didn't know, both my parents where in Holland and while both where children at the time they were aware that something bad was happening to the jews. My dad's family hid a family for almost 2 years, they knew the peanalty for doing so was death. mom remembers the round ups and if jews didn't cooperate or do as they were told being shot in the streets. she remebers several istances especially in 1944 when the allies were closing the germans stepped up the searches.

I agree that 100% knew something bad was going on. I just think the extent was not known. I also believe that a large number did nothing based off of fear alone.

 

[renrich]

The posts by those who have relatives or friends who lived in those days are invaluable. Many thanks. It is hard for US citizens who have never lived anywhere but the US and especially those who are relatively young to understand how truly terrible the behavior of some during WW2 was. However, there are some parallels in American history. During The War Between the States, there were atrocities commited by soldiers on both sides. There were POW camps where conditions in the camps were tantamount to execution. Many of us have heard about Andersonville, GA. where conditions, most of which were the result of poor judgment and mismanagement, caused many prisoners to die of malnutrition and disease. There were Union camps where POWs appeared to have been deliberately treated in such a way to cause death, notably Camp Douglas and another camp in Maryland, the name escapes me. The winners always get to write history. In more recent history, the majority of all Japanese and those of Japanese descent regardless of citizenship were rounded up and put into concentration camps after PH. There was much hysteria after Pearl Harbor but it certainly looks different today than it must have then. As a matter of fact the attitude of many US citizens today(including of course politicians) is much different today than it was in the days immediately after 9-11. What seems extreme or unthinkable behavior today looked totally different on Wednesday morning, 9-12-01.

 

[Soren]

It really disturbs me how Parsifal seems to suggest the German people were evil and knew all about what was happening, when infact he couldn't be more wrong.

I have talked to many German veterans, most of them Wehrmacht soldiers, including officers, but also civilians, and they ALL made it quite clear that they knew NOTHING about the horrors committed in the camps. Some had heard rumors about attrocities being committed, true, but otherwise they didn't know. The official story they had been given was that all jews were to be relocated in the east unharmed but away from the German people, which they had no problem with as the jews were seen as terrorists back then.

And as for the murder of the Soviet POW's by the Wehrmacht, it is worth remembering that by far the majority of the deaths were caused by the Wehrmacht having to move on, with no food reserves, which resulted in masses of Soviet prisoners starving to death. The Germans simply couldn't feed that many. Few were actually executed, and of those who were it was by hands of the shooting squads and the gestapo.

And as for 4.9 million Soviet soldiers murdered, that is a grossly exaggerated figure. In total around 3 million Soviet POW's died as prisoners of war, and the far majority of those were through starvation.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The posts by those who have relatives or friends who lived in those days are invaluable. Many thanks.1.

Just last Wed. I was at the funeral for my wife's grandmother who died last Friday at 96. We were looking through her photo albums and one was particular interesting for me. Her husband (my wife's grandfather) was in the Wehrmacht and served on the east front. The pictures were very amazing (from a historical point of view). There were actual combat pics including several of them climbing over destroyed T-34 tanks. The ones that I found most interesting were the ones that he took in the Russian POW camp (found it very surprising that he had a camera there). He came home in 1947 and died shortly thereafter due to a lung illness that he contracted in the POW camp.

And as for 4.9 million Soviet soldiers murdered, that is a grossly exaggerated figure. In total around 3 million Soviet POW's died as prisoners of war, and the far majority of those were through starvation.

And that would make it any better?

The funny thing Soren is that if you talk to most Germans they will tell you the opposite of what you are saying. The full extent of what they knew is debatable, but the majority knew that something terrible was going on. But hey what do I know? I only grew up in Germany, in a German family and speak to Germans on a daily basis. You know better...

Oh well after that last post, the fun is about to begin...

 

[Njaco]

I have to agree with Soren that maybe a good portion did not know what was going on in the camps but disagree with him that they were mostly blind to the whole thing. To get a true grasp on the situation you would first have to understand the feelings of most Germans, Austrians and other European nations regarding Jews and even Communists during that time. This was the 20s, 30s and 40s and they didn't have the luxury of Civil Rights movements or awarness of race or religion that we have today. Even Hitler didn't come by this view alone. It was developed during his time in Vienna and the underground culture that wanted to blame all the troubles of the world on race or religion or politics.

But the populace did know something was going on and it wasn't good. The race-based laws that Hitler passed in the 30s brought a whole host of horrors on the jews and that was in the open. How could you deny the large yellow stars that people wore or the businesses that were filled with hate graffitti? This had been going on for years and the people were aware.

Maybe not exactly as to what was going on, but they knew its wasn't Utopia for the internees.

 

[Amsel]

The Germans , as well as Japanese were horrific in their complicity. The racial policies and views held by most Germans toward other nations are absolutely horrible. They fought for the glory of Germany and bowed to an emporer named Hitler who while trying to become like Napoleon thrust the world into one of if not its darkest moment. I do not think the whole pain and human suffering can even be measured. Western civilization has lost much of its prestige due to the war. And many Germans still today harbor feelings in private that they long for the glory days of the third reich but will never say it openly.

 

[renrich]

I find that there are many instances where photos seem to tell a different story than what we read or hear in history books. I have seen photos and old news reels that show POWs being liberated from German and even Japanese POW camps who looked like they were in relatively good physical condition and had had a decent diet. It does seem surprising that a POW would have a camera in a camp. I remember as a child driving through Fort Sam Houston in 1944-45 and seeing German and Italian POWs tending to the landscaping on officers row. They had armed guards but they did not look they had a bad life at all. One thing about old photos is obvious. Pictures taken during the Second World War of US military and civilians show that we did not have nearly as many obese people as we have today.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree with Soren that maybe a good portion did not know what was going on in the camps but disagree with him that they were mostly blind to the whole thing. To get a true grasp on the situation you would first have to understand the feelings of most Germans, Austrians and other European nations regarding Jews and even Communists during that time. This was the 20s, 30s and 40s and they didn't have the luxury of Civil Rights movements or awarness of race or religion that we have today. Even Hitler didn't come by this view alone. It was developed during his time in Vienna and the underground culture that wanted to blame all the troubles of the world on race or religion or politics.

But the populace did know something was going on and it wasn't good. The race-based laws that Hitler passed in the 30s brought a whole host of horrors on the jews and that was in the open. How could you deny the large yellow stars that people wore or the businesses that were filled with hate graffitti? This had been going on for years and the people were aware.

Agreed

Like I said in an earlier post, I do not think that any of us can truly understand how something like this could happen. By this I mean how it all started with the Nazi's taking power. It was very easy at that time for someone like Hitler to take power.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And many Germans still today harbor feelings in private that they long for the glory days of the third reich but will never say it openly.

No they do not...

A very small minority of right wingers still believe such a thing, but I promise you the majority do not hold the feelings that you think they do. Where do you even come up with such a thing?

 

[Amsel]

I was refering to the ones who grew up in the reich. It can't ever be proven but one can draw conclusions and thats about it. The third reich had quite a few positive attributes as well as Hitler himself so it isn't that surprising. I don't think it is possible to deconstruct everybody who grew up in the third reich totally.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I was refering to the ones who grew up in the reich. It can't ever be proven but one can draw conclusions and thats about it. The third reich had quite a few positive attributes as well as Hitler himself so it isn't that surprising. I don't think it is possible to deconstruct everybody who grew up in the third reich totally.

I seriously doubt that as well. The majority that I have truly spoken to (not just family members) only remember the horrors that happened because of the Third Reich and pray that something like this never happens again.

I am sure that there are some though that do as you say.

 

[Amsel]

I am sure that there are some though that do as you say.

I get that feeling when reading many of the fine biographies and histories of Germany in WWII. I do not hardly get the sense of shame for fighting for one of the most evil regimes in history but only regret that the war was lost. I read some accounts that show the authors or subjects to have feelings of guilt but it is mostly not genuinely felt. One gets the feeling in many instances where they display feelings of pain for losing the war.

 

[Njaco]

I think that may be because of a soldiers view of the war and it was a duty and honor more so than a political agenda. So you will get a sense of loss but not so much shame which is understandable. Most - MOST - soldiers fought the war because they were soldiers, nothing more.

 

[Amsel]

I think that may be because of a soldiers view of the war and it was a duty and honor more so than a political agenda. So you will get a sense of loss but not so much shame which is understandable. Most - MOST - soldiers fought the war because they were soldiers, nothing more.

I agre completely. My assessment is purely clinical with no emotion injected into the conversation. I cannot hate the Germans as a people. My opinion is that the world has changed in many ways and it is too easy to make quick judgements on such a subject. Especially when the subject is so faceted and has so many qualifiers such as age, location, education and numerous other possibilities. Based on todays standards they seem to be a wicked people for the treatment of the Jewish people as well as other undesirables, but then again every nation has gone through some dark times including my own. I cannot judge the Germans or Japanese as a people for the war because they lived in a totalarian society but I can only give my opinion on actions.