Osama Bin Laden is Dead!!!
- Thread starter Trebor
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parsifal
Colonel
I heard the US found pornography - lots of it-, in the personal spaces of Bin Laden. Wonder Mr Average muslim and Mr Crazy loon muslim are going to make of that....if they hear about it that is
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
hahahahahahahahh!!!!!
That photo was already proven to be a fake the day after the mission. It was made by a Pakistani news agency by photoshopping a photo of OBL and a dead guy together.
buffnut453
Captain
They'll assume it was planted by the US soldiers.
As for MM's comment that "GOOD is going to come from this", well I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad OBL is no longer around to plague us but he's not Al Qa'eda's only leader and I would expect the organisation to do something substantive to prove it's still in the fight. I also worry that the raid on OBL's compound will be seen as summary execution and hence will harden opinions towards the US and her allies, potentially pushing some moderate Muslims towards greater hostility.
parsifal
Colonel
Summary execution wont worry them too much. But OBL has gotten his martyrs death, which judging by the circumstances of his death is what he planned for and hoped for. I think he knew his days were numbered, so he took steps to preserve the idea of OBL.......they will portray him as a martyr that died for the cause.
To quarterise this obvious running sore, I think the best strategy at this stage is to do our best to discredit his image as a martyr, and to show to the fencesitters just what evil and blood thirsty lengths he was prepared to go to. I think there will be some western nations that will try and use his death as an excuse to reduce or terminate their contribution to the war on terror. So we will tend to get weaker, while the bad guys get stronger
buffnut453
Captain
Parsifal,
I agree we need to discredit him but I suspect we're still losing the propaganda war. Anything negative about OBL emerging from Western governments and/or media will simply be ignored by OBL's loyal following. As with the porn, they'll just say the story was made-up, that evidence was planted etc. The trick is persuading people that he was evil when they think the opposite. That's a very hard thing to do, particularly if his execution is perceived as unjust by moderates because that will simply reinforce stereotypes that the West is corrupt and is not interested in law or justice. It's all in the messaging and, frankly, we're still on the back foot because our news releases simply aren't seen as credible.
I agree we need to discredit him but I suspect we're still losing the propaganda war. Anything negative about OBL emerging from Western governments and/or media will simply be ignored by OBL's loyal following. As with the porn, they'll just say the story was made-up, that evidence was planted etc. The trick is persuading people that he was evil when they think the opposite. That's a very hard thing to do, particularly if his execution is perceived as unjust by moderates because that will simply reinforce stereotypes that the West is corrupt and is not interested in law or justice. It's all in the messaging and, frankly, we're still on the back foot because our news releases simply aren't seen as credible.
parsifal
Colonel
yep
michaelmaltby
Colonel
There would be no Osama without Pakistan - from start (USSR) to finish (9-11 USA) and Pakistan is the key to where this goes. Moderate Pakistanis want to move ahead. They see what free enterprise capitalism and entrepreneurship have done for India. EVERYONE wants a piece of the Indian economy-brain bank. Who wants a piece of the Pakistan economy ....? A bunch of backwards looking freaks ... narcissic freaks - that's who 
All out hearts-and-minds war in Pakistan now - some are writing in the Press that Pakistan should devolve back to three autonomous states - as it was before the British put India together. (This process worked in Czechoslovakia in a highly civilized way, after all) .... but SR Czechoslovakia DIDN'T have the A-Bomb. So - NO SOUP FOR YOU Pakistani Devolvers .
The only war that's worth fighting 'over there' is for Pakistani moderates' hearts and minds. If they are a majority of the middle class and speak up, Pakistan can continue to look west. If these moderates don't declare themselves - they are going to lose their country and their "freedom"-)) to Islamic extremists.
MM
All out hearts-and-minds war in Pakistan now - some are writing in the Press that Pakistan should devolve back to three autonomous states - as it was before the British put India together. (This process worked in Czechoslovakia in a highly civilized way, after all
) .... but SR Czechoslovakia DIDN'T have the A-Bomb. So - NO SOUP FOR YOU Pakistani Devolvers .The only war that's worth fighting 'over there' is for Pakistani moderates' hearts and minds. If they are a majority of the middle class and speak up, Pakistan can continue to look west. If these moderates don't declare themselves - they are going to lose their country and their "freedom"
-)) to Islamic extremists. MM
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parsifal
Colonel
Pakistan is a key player, but its not the only one. If AQ has shown anything its that its a brand readily exportable, and adaptable. If we are to win this war, it has to be one step at a time , one country at a time, done better than Iraq and Afghanistan, and with a united and cogent western voice....instead our efforts are fragmented and we are disunited. And OBLs death tends to reinforce that fragmentation and disunity as many of the fencsitting nations in Europe and elsewhere may use the questionable circumastances of his death as an excuse to duck and weave, whilst the jihadists ham it up as a media circus.
If we deal with AQ in Pakistan, I think the likley outcome is that they (AQ) will relocate to another country, though inevitably they will be weaker than before. So, winning a charm offensive in Pakistan helps, but it is unrealistic to suppose that it would eliminate the threat,
If we deal with AQ in Pakistan, I think the likley outcome is that they (AQ) will relocate to another country, though inevitably they will be weaker than before. So, winning a charm offensive in Pakistan helps, but it is unrealistic to suppose that it would eliminate the threat,
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Pakistan has the bomb. For now, Jakarta, etc. does not. I agree step-by-step. But Pakistan is Job One, IMHO.
MM
MM
parsifal
Colonel
Yes, I agree....its the main exporter of terrorism at the moment, but strangely it is also one of our major muslim bulwarks against it.
On a different note, I note that the ICC have issued warrants for the arrest of Gaddafi and his son. All we ned now is to get himIt would be sure nice to have access to US special forces now.....
On a different note, I note that the ICC have issued warrants for the arrest of Gaddafi and his son. All we ned now is to get himIt would be sure nice to have access to US special forces now.....
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Gaddafi needs to suffer a worse fate... knowing that he is being hunted. And that until he is found he is no longer going to live a life of luxury with wacko Ukranian blond hookers.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
MM has it right. The US has to try and stay engaged with Pakistan on a supportive basis not only because they have nukes but also as a counterbalance to India.
parsifal
Colonel
Hard to disagree with your sentiments. This guy was responsible for Lockerby dont forget. However, I would be happy if the ICC gets some air under its wings by getting this guy, trying him, and putting him in gaol for a very long time. If we achieve that, then a clear message starts to get out all those dirtbags in the world, and maybe the US will give it some credence. It would be fantastic if we had an international system of justice that actually worked......
michaelmaltby
Colonel
parsifal
Colonel
from that thread, the majority of us support war crimes trials. The ICC presents the possibility of a permanent system of justicethat will remove or at least reduce the politization of these things, and give the possibility of routinely locking losers like Gaddafi away. There is the obvious risk it will contract the UN disease, but so far in its young existence has avoided that problem. I am cautiously hopeful, but the next three to four years will see it either as a success or an embarrassing failure. If its a success it would be a brilliant outcome to get the Americans onboard with it. I think, or hope (perhaps naively) that are waiting to observe whether it is effective or not. I hope they are not holding out for political reasons of their own......
And that is the problem, that will not happen with ICC.
As I stated before he will end up in some "Country Club" prison in Western Europe where he will live a very good life. Then after 2 or 3 years they will release him because of bad health and humanitarian reasons.
Please don't take me wrong. I agree with you that Trials are the way to go, I just don't agree with their effectiveness in todays world or that they are "just" enough.
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parsifal
Colonel
why do think they will go soft on him, or any other of the criminals brought before them. The predecessors to the ICC were reasonably effective in tracking down and dealing with the criminals in their jurisdiction. The two immediate predecssors were the tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and the tribunals for Rwanda. The trials in Rwanda were a bit wishy washy, but a vengeful commission would not have solved the reasons for that massacre. I still rate that tribunal as a success, because the ringleaders were punished, and the main objective there was to try to reach some raprochement between the parties. Before those tribunals ther was only the Nuremberg trials, and these were anything but light on the defendants.
And to date the ICC had not had time to complete any of the matters before it, so it is impossible to judge its effectiveness as yet
The only alternative to prosecution by trial is summary justice, and whilst this might salve our desire for vengeance, it does not solve the issues that drive these attocities. It might seem we are fighting with one arm behind our backs, but we have to...we have to demonstrate to these "restless native" the superiority of what we stand for.
I will grant you this.....inneffective due process is worse than no process. If that happens, then we do have a problem, I admit
And to date the ICC had not had time to complete any of the matters before it, so it is impossible to judge its effectiveness as yet
The only alternative to prosecution by trial is summary justice, and whilst this might salve our desire for vengeance, it does not solve the issues that drive these attocities. It might seem we are fighting with one arm behind our backs, but we have to...we have to demonstrate to these "restless native" the superiority of what we stand for.
I will grant you this.....inneffective due process is worse than no process. If that happens, then we do have a problem, I admit
parsifal
Colonel
In regard to the Rwandan trials, there have been a total of 92 indictments brought to trial. Only 8 have been acquitted...a couple have died, whilst in custody, and the remainder are either still in progress, of have been convicted. The vast majority have had life sentences imposed, and as far as I know, life means life in these trials.
I dont have any information of the gaol conditions, but will try and find out.
With regard to the war crimes trials in the Former Yugolsavia, my understanding and information is incomplete, however some of the facts that I do know of are interesting.
International armed forces deployed in the Former Yugoslavia, while slow to prioritize cooperation with the Tribunal in enforcing indictments, more recently improved in their performance. The first arrest by an international armed force was on June 27, 1997, when the U.N. mission in Eastern Slavonia, Croatia (UNTAES) detained Slavko Dokmanovic; he died in Tribunal custody before trial. All subsequent arrests have been made by SFOR troops in Bosnia, and included two others in 1997 for a total of three arrests by international forces in that year (Slavko Dokmanovic; Anto Furundziga on December 18, 1997 --convicted and sentenced to ten years December 1998; and Vlalko Kupreskic, arrested with Furundziga and for whom trial remains pending). In the following years, seven were arrested by SFOR in 1998, and four in 1999 (1998: Goran Jelisic, January 22, 1998; Miroslav Kvocka and Mladen Radic, April 8, 1998; Milojica Kos, May 28, 1998; Milorad Krnojelac, June 15, 1998; Stevan Todorovic, September 30, 1998; and Radislav Krstic, December 2, 1998; and 1999: Dragan Kolundziga, June 7, 1999; Radoslav Brdjanin, July 6, 1999; Radomir Kovac, August 2, 1999; and Damir Dosen, October 25, 1999). On October 19, 1999, the Tribunal found that Goran Jelisic, who calls himself the "Serbian Adolf," was not guilty of genocide; but the tribunal nonetheless convicted him on 31 counts of torture and murder of Muslim and Croatian inmates of the Luka prison camp near Brcko in 1992, for which a forty year term was handed down in December 1999. All the rest of those who have been arrested in 1998-2000 still are awaiting or are undergoing trials (ICTY 2000b).
Bosnian Serb Dusan Tadic, also known as "Dule" and "Dusko", was the first man brought into the custody of the Tribunal; his long trial and his conviction, May 7, 1996, helped delineate the further course of the work of the Tribunal. On February 13, 1995, indictments were handed down against twenty Bosnian Serb commanders and guards from the Omarska concentration camp in northwestern Bosnia, including Tadic. At the time, Tadic was being held by police in Munich, Germany, since his arrest (February 13, 1994), where he had been hiding out at his brother's apartment. He soon was extradited to the Hague, becoming the first defendant held under the custody of the Tribunal. In Tadic's first Tribunal hearing, he declared "I did not take part in any of the crimes with which I am charged".
Evidence undermined that assertion. The indictment against Tadic listed 132 separate counts of crimes against humanity, as well as war crimes under the Geneva Conventions of 1949, all of which related to a rape, several instances of torture, and thirteen murders which occurred between May and August of 1992 at the Omarska concentration camp. Tadic did not hold an official position at the camp, but he was frequently observed by witnesses held there to have worn a military uniform while in the camp.
The Tribunal was scrupulous in examining the many sensational charges, some which alleged his role in castrations, tortures and murders. In one incident, witnesses testified to Tadic ordering prisoners to drink water from puddles on the ground like animals, while he jumped on their backs and beat them. When the men were no longer able to move, Tadic put them into a wheelbarrow, discharging the contents of a fire extinguisher into the mouth of one of the victims. Yet another alleged war crime performed by Tadic occurred on May 27, 1992, when Tadic, along with Goran Borovnica, lined up against a wall Bosnian Muslims and Croats Ekrem Karabasic, Ismet Karabasic, Seido Karabasic, and Redo Foric, and shot them dead.
Witnesses told their experiences in detail, though the use of hearsay evidence and the fact that the identity of some of the raped witnesses was shielded engendered some criticism. Tadic nevertheless received a vigoroous defense: his legal counsel, Michail Wladimiroff, was an experienced Dutch attorney assisted by members of his own law firm, as well as by the head of the Serbian bar association Milan Vujin and Krstan Simic, "a rural country lawyer" from Banja Luka. Assistance also was provided to the team by international NGO's, including the Americans from the Central/Eastern European Legal Initiative. The prosecutors in the case were a formidable unit. Chief prosecutor Richard Goldstone led the team, assisted by a friend of mine, Grant Niemann, an Australian who had prosecuted three cases against suspected Nazi war criminals, in addition to two Americans, Brenda Hollis and Michael Keegan, on loan from U.S. military Judge Advocate General's offices; and one American, Alan Tieger, from the Justice Department who headed the prosecution in the federal trial of four Los Angeles police officers accused of beating Rodney King. Presiding over the trial were three of the U.N.-selected judges, headed by U.S. appointee Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, along with Malaysia's Lal Vohrah and Australia's Sir Ninian Stephen.
On July 14, 1997, Tadic was sentenced to a twenty year term. Tadic appealed but his appeal was defeated. Guess hes not smiling now......and hearings took place April 19-22, 1999, in the Appeals Chamber. Its final judgment was delivered July 15, 1999, denying Tadic's appeal on all grounds. Thus, the Tribunal completed its first complete trial and appeal, finding Tadic to have committed grave breaches of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, including willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, and willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health. Again, I do not know thee conditions of his confinement, but any confinement is going to be a major discouragement to commit such crimes in my opinion. Justice may bne slow but it is happening
Of the 93 warrants that have been issued in the ICTV (the Yugoslavian tribunal), 30 remain at large, 36 convicted, 18 acquitted or the charges dropped, and the remainder are either in progress or awaiting trial. Those awaiting trial are in custody, so effectively they have been incarcerated for more than 10 years anyway. Of the 36 convictions secured, no sentence is less than 10 years duration.
I dont have any information of the gaol conditions, but will try and find out.
With regard to the war crimes trials in the Former Yugolsavia, my understanding and information is incomplete, however some of the facts that I do know of are interesting.
International armed forces deployed in the Former Yugoslavia, while slow to prioritize cooperation with the Tribunal in enforcing indictments, more recently improved in their performance. The first arrest by an international armed force was on June 27, 1997, when the U.N. mission in Eastern Slavonia, Croatia (UNTAES) detained Slavko Dokmanovic; he died in Tribunal custody before trial. All subsequent arrests have been made by SFOR troops in Bosnia, and included two others in 1997 for a total of three arrests by international forces in that year (Slavko Dokmanovic; Anto Furundziga on December 18, 1997 --convicted and sentenced to ten years December 1998; and Vlalko Kupreskic, arrested with Furundziga and for whom trial remains pending). In the following years, seven were arrested by SFOR in 1998, and four in 1999 (1998: Goran Jelisic, January 22, 1998; Miroslav Kvocka and Mladen Radic, April 8, 1998; Milojica Kos, May 28, 1998; Milorad Krnojelac, June 15, 1998; Stevan Todorovic, September 30, 1998; and Radislav Krstic, December 2, 1998; and 1999: Dragan Kolundziga, June 7, 1999; Radoslav Brdjanin, July 6, 1999; Radomir Kovac, August 2, 1999; and Damir Dosen, October 25, 1999). On October 19, 1999, the Tribunal found that Goran Jelisic, who calls himself the "Serbian Adolf," was not guilty of genocide; but the tribunal nonetheless convicted him on 31 counts of torture and murder of Muslim and Croatian inmates of the Luka prison camp near Brcko in 1992, for which a forty year term was handed down in December 1999. All the rest of those who have been arrested in 1998-2000 still are awaiting or are undergoing trials (ICTY 2000b).
Bosnian Serb Dusan Tadic, also known as "Dule" and "Dusko", was the first man brought into the custody of the Tribunal; his long trial and his conviction, May 7, 1996, helped delineate the further course of the work of the Tribunal. On February 13, 1995, indictments were handed down against twenty Bosnian Serb commanders and guards from the Omarska concentration camp in northwestern Bosnia, including Tadic. At the time, Tadic was being held by police in Munich, Germany, since his arrest (February 13, 1994), where he had been hiding out at his brother's apartment. He soon was extradited to the Hague, becoming the first defendant held under the custody of the Tribunal. In Tadic's first Tribunal hearing, he declared "I did not take part in any of the crimes with which I am charged".
Evidence undermined that assertion. The indictment against Tadic listed 132 separate counts of crimes against humanity, as well as war crimes under the Geneva Conventions of 1949, all of which related to a rape, several instances of torture, and thirteen murders which occurred between May and August of 1992 at the Omarska concentration camp. Tadic did not hold an official position at the camp, but he was frequently observed by witnesses held there to have worn a military uniform while in the camp.
The Tribunal was scrupulous in examining the many sensational charges, some which alleged his role in castrations, tortures and murders. In one incident, witnesses testified to Tadic ordering prisoners to drink water from puddles on the ground like animals, while he jumped on their backs and beat them. When the men were no longer able to move, Tadic put them into a wheelbarrow, discharging the contents of a fire extinguisher into the mouth of one of the victims. Yet another alleged war crime performed by Tadic occurred on May 27, 1992, when Tadic, along with Goran Borovnica, lined up against a wall Bosnian Muslims and Croats Ekrem Karabasic, Ismet Karabasic, Seido Karabasic, and Redo Foric, and shot them dead.
Witnesses told their experiences in detail, though the use of hearsay evidence and the fact that the identity of some of the raped witnesses was shielded engendered some criticism. Tadic nevertheless received a vigoroous defense: his legal counsel, Michail Wladimiroff, was an experienced Dutch attorney assisted by members of his own law firm, as well as by the head of the Serbian bar association Milan Vujin and Krstan Simic, "a rural country lawyer" from Banja Luka. Assistance also was provided to the team by international NGO's, including the Americans from the Central/Eastern European Legal Initiative. The prosecutors in the case were a formidable unit. Chief prosecutor Richard Goldstone led the team, assisted by a friend of mine, Grant Niemann, an Australian who had prosecuted three cases against suspected Nazi war criminals, in addition to two Americans, Brenda Hollis and Michael Keegan, on loan from U.S. military Judge Advocate General's offices; and one American, Alan Tieger, from the Justice Department who headed the prosecution in the federal trial of four Los Angeles police officers accused of beating Rodney King. Presiding over the trial were three of the U.N.-selected judges, headed by U.S. appointee Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, along with Malaysia's Lal Vohrah and Australia's Sir Ninian Stephen.
On July 14, 1997, Tadic was sentenced to a twenty year term. Tadic appealed but his appeal was defeated. Guess hes not smiling now......and hearings took place April 19-22, 1999, in the Appeals Chamber. Its final judgment was delivered July 15, 1999, denying Tadic's appeal on all grounds. Thus, the Tribunal completed its first complete trial and appeal, finding Tadic to have committed grave breaches of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, including willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, and willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health. Again, I do not know thee conditions of his confinement, but any confinement is going to be a major discouragement to commit such crimes in my opinion. Justice may bne slow but it is happening
Of the 93 warrants that have been issued in the ICTV (the Yugoslavian tribunal), 30 remain at large, 36 convicted, 18 acquitted or the charges dropped, and the remainder are either in progress or awaiting trial. Those awaiting trial are in custody, so effectively they have been incarcerated for more than 10 years anyway. Of the 36 convictions secured, no sentence is less than 10 years duration.
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