Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Nice one Bill. It would be good to find one or more combats between P51's and Fw 190 D's on roughly numerical terms as a historical precedent.
P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"
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Nice one Bill. It would be good to find one or more combats between P51's and Fw 190 D's on roughly numerical terms as a historical precedent.
drgondog said:
- and thrust.
A high amount of thrust will allow an a/c to simply power through its' turn. But to get back to the Dora again, like you said yourself drag is an important factor here as-well, and the Dora is also A LOT less draggy than the Anton. So now you've got two physical reasons why the Dora clearly turns better than the Anton.
To put it simply: Considering that the Dora weighed the same as the Anton but at the same time featured a lot more thrust and a lot less drag, then the original squadron opinions posted in Hermann's book, about the Dora being a clear improvement over the Anton in terms of turn performance, climb rate and speed, are fully and clearly justified. The pilots say that the Dora turns better than the Anton and so does physics.
Crumpp actually also did a very nice little comparison between the Dora and Anton on this forum with charts and all, and the Dora performed a lot better in turn rate and minimum turn radius than the Anton.
At any rate I am more than willing to cooperate in making an accurate aerodynamic comparison between the two a/c, I've got all the FW aerodynamic property figures so I could hand them over to you and you could make an analytical comparison between the two a/c out from these figures ? I am certain you'll come to exactly the same conclusion as me though.
And Dietmar also makes it clear that these examples suffered from malfunctioning engines not performing as they should, which was also clearly demonstrated in another series of tests done at Rechlin with a different batch of engines which improved performance a lot.
I've got the FW AG performance data which hasn't once been proven inaccurate yet, they are infact usually extremely conservative as Gene (Crumpp) has pointed out many times before.
Also I never said that the roll rate was better, why would it be ? The wing is the same on both a/c so. The opinion of pilots was also that it was the same or maybe slightly worse in the Dora because of the extra torque of the engine.
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drgondog
Major
The Jan 14 battles One between JG26 and 78FG near Koblenz was essentially a 'one to one' in terms of fighters that engaged with each other - in ~ squadron level combat. On the same day the 355th had one short squadron (12 a/c) engage from west of Dummer lake and s of Meppen just north of this fight.
IIRC the clash with JG26 was all 190D's with 11 shot down for loss of 1 Mustang.
The 355th engaged with a mixed bag of ~15 aircraft and were awarded (3) 109G, (7) Fw 190D and(1) Fw 190A-8 or 9. The latter could also have been a 'long nosed 190" . The 355th shot down 11 for no losses. The top scorer for the 355th was Mills with three downed with a P-51B. Graham and Beeler each got two 190D's.
The biggest battle IIRC was between JG300 and 357FG around Belin on the same day. Erich could tell you how many of the total losses were 190D's. The final award total was 57 for the loss of 3 Mustangs.
Point is, at that time, perhaps only JG 26 had any real time in combat with the 190D's and the pilot skills were diminished. All good examples of numerical relevance but not skills equality.
drgondog
Major
If you slip back a couple of years you might be able to post Gene's plots. I think I am right about max sustainable G plot versus high and low speeds. I have his spread sheet and know he uses only one value fo Thrust (SL) and one value for Cd0 (calculated from top speed)
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
IMHO the only way to ever truly answer this is to create a computer model of both planes, thus removing the age of parts and more importantly to ensure the skill of the pilots are equal.
all else being = ...
= level of pilot skill, experience, and experience in type = 1 vs. 1 = both planes in perfect order = no advantage in altitude, position, or energy at the merge = fuel loads loads (split the difference between percentage and gallons i guess to be fair) or whatever you choose as long as it is = .
as far as the chart goes, there is the NACA evaluation of similar types. you can try and evade the obvious correlations to the types being discussed and the types charted but that would be evasive as there is no reason to believe that the relative abilities changed very much.
combat speeds in IAS are as you stated between 200 and 300 knots, we are talking a dogfight here as "close match-up" causes us to conclude if you want to put forward the idea that these two aircraft are going to be engaged for long and still be above 400kts what ever is going on probably is not looking much like a "dogfight" or it is rapidly descending.
point being that yes anything could happen to off set a balanced situation. however the 190 is the only one with an undisputed advantage over the other aircraft. ergo imo it is the obvious choice ...
"all else being ="
p.s. for those who were paying attention i brought up range in my first post.
= level of pilot skill, experience, and experience in type = 1 vs. 1 = both planes in perfect order = no advantage in altitude, position, or energy at the merge = fuel loads loads (split the difference between percentage and gallons i guess to be fair) or whatever you choose as long as it is = .
as far as the chart goes, there is the NACA evaluation of similar types. you can try and evade the obvious correlations to the types being discussed and the types charted but that would be evasive as there is no reason to believe that the relative abilities changed very much.
combat speeds in IAS are as you stated between 200 and 300 knots, we are talking a dogfight here as "close match-up" causes us to conclude if you want to put forward the idea that these two aircraft are going to be engaged for long and still be above 400kts what ever is going on probably is not looking much like a "dogfight" or it is rapidly descending.
point being that yes anything could happen to off set a balanced situation. however the 190 is the only one with an undisputed advantage over the other aircraft. ergo imo it is the obvious choice ...
"all else being ="
p.s. for those who were paying attention i brought up range in my first post.
drgondog
Major
And your point is?
why do you reply in other peoples quotes ??? very annoying ...
what didn't you understand about "at the merge ???"
the naca roll rate chart i posted pages ago, you know the one you keep avoiding commenting on ...
what is the roll rate advantage in that chart at 350kts 30% ???
(pretty fast for a 20k dogfight btw )
any idea how much many degrees that kind of advantage would translate to in say a scissor ???
what is that a reversal in 3 or 4 turns ???
drgondog
Major
Yes.
So, you feel comfortable using a chart from NACA delineating roll rates of different WWII fighters with 50 pound stick forces, but you haven't commented on the various Fw 190D charts Ditemar translated for Mike Williams on the same website? Or compared them to the USAAF and RAF Test reports on 51B-D?
In the comparative regions where the Fw 190D may have been slightly faster or climbed slightly faster how much is 2-5Kts/hr top speed, or 100-200 fpm? Ditto the Mustang advantages at altitude?
As an aside, the 109G had significantly better climb rates than either the 51 or the 190 and it was shot down in greater numbers than the 190A (approximately 1.5X over 190). According to Soren, referencing Rechlin test data the 109G also out turned the Fw 190. We haven't seen the documents yet but willing to hold that thought as there is no written evidence yet that the 109 out turned the 51B-D, particularly at high medium to high speeds.
Let's summarize.
a.) Zero points on the speed and climb charts where the Fw 190D has a significant advantage in a knife fight until the speed range is below 300kts - AND THAT ONLY IF THE JG Pilots reports to Caldwell are incorrect (remember they said that they were disappointed in Fw 190D roll and turn compared to Fw 190A). There are multiple points where the 51 has an advantage at bomber altitudes.
Having said that I believe that while the roll advantage of the D may be less than the A over the Mustang, that it should still outroll the 51 at low medium to high medium speeds.
b.) the 190D in the real world had significant operational problems due to fuel shortages, shortage of MW50 kits and lower boost capability, than presented or implied in the tests that were published and explained by Dietmar.
c.) there is anecdotal evidence that the 190D had a slower roll rate and turn rate than the Anton. There is no corresponding anecdotal evidence (presented here - yet) that this is not true. The sources for those comments are JG 26 War Diary, the USAAF flight test post war and, indirectly, whisky talk among four 355th FG aces that flew the damn thing against each other post war Gablingen. (Elder, Fortier, Hovde and Marshall)
Discount the last (c.) - but trot out your written sources to refute. Otherwise we might suspect you are being 'emotional'.
d.) last but most important. For the mission the Fw 190D had, namely be a Mustang killer - it first had to accomplish that role at altitudes where Mustangs were found - namely 20-30,000 feet. For the 'mythical all else being =' it is presumed that both see each other at the same altitude and have time to throttle to max boost. At that level the 51 will enter the knifefight with more energy and in a ship with the lowest drag of the two, pretty equal wing loading, higher rate of climb and a superior roll rate. Usually one of those will work for you, two will work (all else being=).
IF the Mustang had a better turn rate, which is reasonable based on comparisons with Fw 190A, it is not a good situation for the 190D driver - but that is not a fact entered into evidence. Soren is correct that the 190D with a fully functioning engine at max boost probably has better acceleration (than a 51D at 75"/3000 rpm) from a lower speed. What is not clear is whether the thrust available to drag forces, when comparing the two ships, is significant enough to make any difference
The superirority (Mustang) at 20K+) might denigrate if the fight stays in the horizontal, depending on the real facts regarding turn performance. The dependencies will be if the Mustang slows down to reef it in for a deflection shot and the 190is able to out roll and reverse .
Last point as I have reached a state of total boredom on this subject.
A performance model to generate some reasonable metrics requires reliable drag polars for both ships and assuming that THEY are NOT proportionately affected in asymmetric flight loading for turning manuever.
You got some?
Otherwise revel in your opinion and experience true glee that you have forcefully stated it.
Regards,
Bill
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Indeed. Factoring in pilot skill and combat experience is difficult, numerical equality being only part of the equation. I wonder if with a little research (or possibly a lot) we could find a clash between two pilots of roughly the same experience? Albeit that one incident on its own proves little, it would be an interesting exercise nonetheless.
drgondog
Major
My opinion is that given equal pilot skill - the one that enters the fray with a tactical advantage is gonna win most of the time. The over riding issues in this dialogue are multifold. Luftwaffe skills had eroded greatly and even the experten were confronted not only with a lot more opponents with close to same skills or equal, but the experienced LW pilots were often trying to protect a wingman in harms way. Additionally the fuel situation wire dire, the winter weather often forced the 109D pilots to take off and climb through heavy cloud cover and weather to attempt to reach combat altitudes.
In other words - a lot of tactical, built in, disadvantages, at that time in the war.
Simply stated it was a great airplane but not a difference maker for the P-51B or D other than bringing it to parity.
In all fairness the P-51H could have started deployment in late March and is more of a generational comparison to the 190D, than the 190D to 51D, which didn't enter combat ops until the 51D was fighting for 6 months... and arguably the P-51B was a more dangerous opponent, and entered combat ops a full year earlier.
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Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
^^
A logical and reasoned deduction. I would certainly agree to the points made.
A logical and reasoned deduction. I would certainly agree to the points made.
Erich
the old Sage
when time permits I will include a rather small portion of ii>/JG 301's pilots thoughts on the Dora. in a word they loved the machine though were shot up pretty badly by the 8th AF Mustangs.
for Bills posting above JG 300 on 14 January had NO Doras on their roster they were using A-8's and A-9's and though successful in ripping a bomber formation apart were creamed in the insuing battle with the P-51's.
now I must include though; 4 kills for the Jg only and it was slaughtered in part due when it was reaching for B-17 pulks it was still climbing for altitude when hit from all directions from P-51's which already had the height advantage. Geschwader stab had some Doras on hand, and Black 2 from the Stab was hit and shot down by a P-51.
6th staffel lost 4 Doras as the other staffeln of II. gruppe had not become fully equipped whether in part or in whole of the Dora quite yet. 6th staffel by the way was the first staffel in JG 301 to become soley equipped in December 44 at it's end.
for Bills posting above JG 300 on 14 January had NO Doras on their roster they were using A-8's and A-9's and though successful in ripping a bomber formation apart were creamed in the insuing battle with the P-51's.
now I must include though; 4 kills for the Jg only and it was slaughtered in part due when it was reaching for B-17 pulks it was still climbing for altitude when hit from all directions from P-51's which already had the height advantage. Geschwader stab had some Doras on hand, and Black 2 from the Stab was hit and shot down by a P-51.
6th staffel lost 4 Doras as the other staffeln of II. gruppe had not become fully equipped whether in part or in whole of the Dora quite yet. 6th staffel by the way was the first staffel in JG 301 to become soley equipped in December 44 at it's end.
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Thanks for the clarification Erich.
drgondog
Major
Good catch Erich - I wasn't sure whether JG 300 had D9's in that fight or not, but was pretty sure you could comment correctly.
Erich
the old Sage
just a short teaser but when 6./JG 301 handed over it's A-9's and given the Dora it was noted that their presence gave the pilots a bit more confidence in the higher ranges to engage the P-=51D, the pilots were more confident even if losing in greater numbers in the skies over Germany, the performance was greater than the Anton and sadly it does not mention quickness in flat but does say the climbing was superior to the A variants on hand, dive was equal but usually with the Mustang and if the LW pilot was not an experienced old hand (very few left), he was most probably going to lose in an air battle with escorts. it was found that the Doras indeed were ordered up nearly a 1000 feet higher than the heavy III. gruppe equipped with the Fw 190A-8 and R2 versions for seeking out the bombers.
There must be made mention of the fact that only 6th staffel was first equipped at December 44's end right through the month of January and finally near February 45's middle that the two other stafafles the 5th and 7th were partially equipped. 8th staffle never received the Dora and of course the question beckons .........why not ? have not received that info.............yet.
There must be made mention of the fact that only 6th staffel was first equipped at December 44's end right through the month of January and finally near February 45's middle that the two other stafafles the 5th and 7th were partially equipped. 8th staffle never received the Dora and of course the question beckons .........why not ? have not received that info.............yet.
drgondog
Major
One could speculate that the 262 had overwhelming weighted priority and also specualte that the Ta 152 was competeing for resources at Focke Wulf plants.
From a first hand anecdotal perspective it is pretty clear that Bill Lyons did indeed shoot down a 190D in his last battle, thinking it was a "109 (in line engine) with inboard wing cannons).
We can't know for sure but we do know it wasn't a 109. He was impressed with it. His initial advantage was turning inside to shoot at it (firing at his wingman) then catching it in a dive when it rolled and split ess after lyons got his advantage. Simply the a/c were too closely matched for a dive to work when that close to each other.
It was not an 'equal opportunity' fight in that the 190D was faster intially diving on his wingman, and slowed to get a good firing position, giving Lyons time to spool up and turn inside.. so can't learn anything from this.
Erich
the old Sage
Bill what was the date again of Lyons victory and in what area please, my stuff is buried.
the Ta was suppose to go back and re-equip all of III./JG 301 obviously it did not happen as well as Geschwader stab. I would not doubt and of course it is unknown due to time restrictions but all of JG 301 most likely would have had the TA on hand, then we could of compared performance records, surely the Anton would of been phased out with the Dora as well and Iv. th gruppe with the Bf 109G-10 would of been no more though it was blanked on on 2 march 45 and enver regained its self so was not even a help for the poor Jg in the closing weeks of thewar.
the Ta was suppose to go back and re-equip all of III./JG 301 obviously it did not happen as well as Geschwader stab. I would not doubt and of course it is unknown due to time restrictions but all of JG 301 most likely would have had the TA on hand, then we could of compared performance records, surely the Anton would of been phased out with the Dora as well and Iv. th gruppe with the Bf 109G-10 would of been no more though it was blanked on on 2 march 45 and enver regained its self so was not even a help for the poor Jg in the closing weeks of thewar.
i did read the chart actually but i did miss reviewing things when you you changing the speeds i stated 200-300kts to 350 kts the relationship does change. however i am as you may have guessed that a dogfight would sustain altitude and 350kts or be quick in conclusion with two expert pilots in their aircraft.
as the fight gets slower and lower the advantage switches to the 190 ...
(yes an assumption but no more of one where you express an advantage for the mustang at the initial merge as your statements assume and your historic fights were)
i am taking this as a plane vs. plane as the original poster intended. you have throughout this discussion refused to discuss this on those terms.
plane vs. plane you have done little to convince me.
however i must agree that the actual historic circumstances are very much in the p51s favor, but that is not the topic is it ?
as the fight gets slower and lower the advantage switches to the 190 ...
(yes an assumption but no more of one where you express an advantage for the mustang at the initial merge as your statements assume and your historic fights were)
i am taking this as a plane vs. plane as the original poster intended. you have throughout this discussion refused to discuss this on those terms.
plane vs. plane you have done little to convince me.
however i must agree that the actual historic circumstances are very much in the p51s favor, but that is not the topic is it ?
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drgondog
Major
Lyons and Ludeke each were awarded 190D's (1 each) on 9 Feb 1945 near Grieben /Stendahl area ..I think you tentatively thought JG 300 or 301.
Hard to know if the Anton would have been phased out or not as a lot were on hand until the great strafing attacks in April... and heavier armament making Jabo missions potentially more effective. Seems the logical first replacement by Ta 152 (and D-9's) as you suggested would be all 109G-10's
The deployment issue for the Ta 152 could have been pilot/ground crew training as well as a reasonable stream of spares. IIRC the production 190D-9 first arrived in late October to JG 26 but didn't go operational until late November/early December? And even then not all were equipped with MW50?
Had the war looked like it was going to last months longer, squadron level deployment of 51H's conceivably could have been started in ETO in early April/May, but the more interesting Ta 152 adversary in May/June would have been the P-80... at least one full group could have possibly been formed if they were deemed 'needed'.
In May/June/July the fighter-fighter battles of most interest would have been P-80/Meteor/Me 262/He 162?
