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Actually I have 56+ hours solo in a 51D but have no reference to flying one in combat or even a rat race. My opinions (anecdotal) about the Mustang would be handling characteristics.
My father's recollection of his 190D and 109 time post war were anecdotal and his rat races were with 51 aces from the 355th post war. One has no frame of reference to engine, rigging, fuel, etc for the 190D and he is no longer available for consultation.
It is interesting to contemplate that perhaps ONLY Rechlin was in a position to compare against the 51D and B against LW types - but the condition of their captured birds would be equally suspect and they had no access to 150 octane fuel - and no one has produced any test data of any kind for 'stated opionions' of such flights at Rechlin. ALL tests in hand are post WWII Allied tests.
drgondog said:rate of turn and the radius of the turn is a function of drag, wing loading, and speed
In other words they are tests perfromed by Germans on brand new Fw 190D's, translated by the same author you cite as an expert..
What other performance data do you have in hand - other than speed vs altitude and climb vs altitude to refute opinions of both quoted JG 26 pilots and the USAAF flight test personnel regarding Fw 190D vs 190A roll rates?
Nice one Bill. It would be good to find one or more combats between P51's and Fw 190 D's on roughly numerical terms as a historical precedent.
- and thrust.
Thrust was given for the first set - namely excess power, but yes thrust is crucial as well as drag at all points in the model
A high amount of thrust will allow an a/c to simply power through its' turn. But to get back to the Dora again, like you said yourself drag is an important factor here as-well, and the Dora is also A LOT less draggy than the Anton. So now you've got two physical reasons why the Dora clearly turns better than the Anton.
It was less draggy than Anton, which in turn was less draggy than Spit IX. All were draggier than the Mustang
To put it simply: Considering that the Dora weighed the same as the Anton but at the same time featured a lot more thrust and a lot less drag, then the original squadron opinions posted in Hermann's book, about the Dora being a clear improvement over the Anton in terms of turn performance, climb rate and speed, are fully and clearly justified. The pilots say that the Dora turns better than the Anton and so does physics.
Crumpp actually also did a very nice little comparison between the Dora and Anton on this forum with charts and all, and the Dora performed a lot better in turn rate and minimum turn radius than the Anton.
IIRC Gene's charts plotted max G as a function of speed with no attempt to plot radius or angular velocity of the turns.
At any rate I am more than willing to cooperate in making an accurate aerodynamic comparison between the two a/c, I've got all the FW aerodynamic property figures so I could hand them over to you and you could make an analytical comparison between the two a/c out from these figures ? I am certain you'll come to exactly the same conclusion as me though.
Soren, what has stopped us is the simple fact that no one has any drag polars of the ships we want to compare - so there is no way to calculate (accurately) the change in Cd0 as velocity changes in each step of the free body diagram. If you have either the 109 or 190 or 51 you haven't presented them. I have contacted Boeing to get access to old archive wind tunnel tests by NAA but have not yet received a response
E.G Lednicer's report is generated around ONE Reynolds number to normalize for velocity. IIRC it was around 300 mph for each of the models he used in VSAERO
And Dietmar also makes it clear that these examples suffered from malfunctioning engines not performing as they should, which was also clearly demonstrated in another series of tests done at Rechlin with a different batch of engines which improved performance a lot.
In the section he contributed to Mike Williams site, Dietmar clearly references several different werkno for the Fw 190D's and discusses in detail the condition of the engines, the fuel and ata, the effect of ETC 510 racks and cowl seals...
I've got the FW AG performance data which hasn't once been proven inaccurate yet, they are infact usually extremely conservative as Gene (Crumpp) has pointed out many times before.
You can 'go anywhere you wish' but you can't prove "all else being =' .. you need to start there?
all else being = ...
= level of pilot skill, experience, and experience in type = 1 vs. 1 = both planes in perfect order = no advantage in altitude, position, or energy at the merge = fuel loads loads (split the difference between percentage and gallons i guess to be fair) or whatever you choose as long as it is = .
By definition if there is a level speed advantage of one over the other, there IS an energy advantage
as far as the chart goes, there is the NACA evaluation of similar types. you can try and evade the obvious correlations to the types being discussed and the types charted but that would be evasive as there is no reason to believe that the relative abilities changed very much.
nobody trying very hard to 'evade' anything with you. What NACA evaluation did you have in mind?
combat speeds in IAS are as you stated between 200 and 300 knots, we are talking a dogfight here as "close match-up" causes us to conclude if you want to put forward the idea that these two aircraft are going to be engaged for long and still be above 400kts what ever is going on probably is not looking much like a "dogfight" or it is rapidly descending.
Initial merge could be 350+kts and few engagements lasted long. Dives occurred when one of them ran out of options. In the above example at high speed the ship that bleeds energy the fastest is the one with the initial disadvantage (all else=)
point being that yes anything could happen to off set a balanced situation. however the 190 is the only one with an undisputed advantage over the other aircraft. ergo imo it is the obvious choice ...
If it was 'undisputed' we wouldn't be disputing it - would we? So lets start the fight at 30,000 feet and go from there?
"all else being ="
p.s. for those who were paying attention i brought up range in my first post.
And your point is?
why do you reply in other peoples quotes ??? very annoying ...
So Solly. It is easier for me to comment directly to your specific statement.
You can't imagine the stress I am experiencing at this moment over your stated annoyance with me..
what didn't you understand about "at the merge ???"
Zero
the naca roll rate chart i posted pages ago, you know the one you keep avoiding commenting on ...
The one that shows the Fw 190A crossing over with the Mustang roll rate at 50 pounds stick force at ~340-350mph? Sorry - I DID comment on it by reference that the 190A crossed over the Mustang roll rate at 300kts. Did you look over the chart? Did you miss that little detail?
The reason I brought out the quotes from the 190D section in JG26 War Diary is to provide anecdotal reference that some LW pilots in JG26 (Krupinski, Crump, Stumpf, etc) were disappointed in 190D rate of roll and turn with respect to the Anton. In the same section there are additional quotes that the Mustang still had performance superiority - but in fairness that (December) was a period when MW50 capability was not in every 190D-9
You care to trot out references to substantiate a different view? Have you commented on the Dietmar performance translations? Have you compared those against the USAAF and RAF flight test performance tests w/150 octane fuel? I haven't seen your comments yet but don't find your silence 'annoying'- just amusing as they don't support your opinion and you haven't trotted out the opposing test results to substantiate yours.
what is the roll rate advantage in that chart at 350kts 30% ???
For 190A? minimal at 300kts, greater and increasing for Mustang>300kts.
The point I specified from the beginning of our dialogue is that the Fw 190A had a significant advantage until the stick forces at high speed brought it to same or less as Mustang. Have you noticed how light a Mustang stick is on roll at high speed? By all pilot accounts I have seen or heard so far both the 190 and 109 stick forces were VERY stiff starting to increase significantly at 270kts
I would have to dig but probably find advice from 8th AF/RAF to Mustang drivers to keep their speed up against the 190 and 109. You suppose they had a reason?
(pretty fast for a 20k dogfight btw )
But a frequent speed and advantage for a Mustang entering combat head on with throttle run into the gate - in the 15K-30K altitude range. The typical P-51 speed essing over a bomber formation was 260-280 TAS and the Sweepers were at 300-330mph at 2-4000 feet above the bomber stream
any idea how much many degrees that kind of advantage would translate to in say a scissor ???
what is that a reversal in 3 or 4 turns ???
Point is, at that time, perhaps only JG 26 had any real time in combat with the 190D's and the pilot skills were diminished. All good examples of numerical relevance but not skills equality.
Indeed. Factoring in pilot skill and combat experience is difficult, numerical equality being only part of the equation. I wonder if with a little research (or possibly a lot) we could find a clash between two pilots of roughly the same experience? Albeit that one incident on its own proves little, it would be an interesting exercise nonetheless.
when time permits I will include a rather small portion of ii>/JG 301's pilots thoughts on the Dora. in a word they loved the machine though were shot up pretty badly by the 8th AF Mustangs.
for Bills posting above JG 300 on 14 January had NO Doras on their roster they were using A-8's and A-9's and though successful in ripping a bomber formation apart were creamed in the insuing battle with the P-51's.
now I must include though; 4 kills for the Jg only and it was slaughtered in part due when it was reaching for B-17 pulks it was still climbing for altitude when hit from all directions from P-51's which already had the height advantage. Geschwader stab had some Doras on hand, and Black 2 from the Stab was hit and shot down by a P-51.
6th staffel lost 4 Doras as the other staffeln of II. gruppe had not become fully equipped whether in part or in whole of the Dora quite yet. 6th staffel by the way was the first staffel in JG 301 to become soley equipped in December 44 at it's end.
just a short teaser but when 6./JG 301 handed over it's A-9's and given the Dora it was noted that their presence gave the pilots a bit more confidence in the higher ranges to engage the P-=51D, the pilots were more confident even if losing in greater numbers in the skies over Germany, the performance was greater than the Anton and sadly it does not mention quickness in flat but does say the climbing was superior to the A variants on hand, dive was equal but usually with the Mustang and if the LW pilot was not an experienced old hand (very few left), he was most probably going to lose in an air battle with escorts. it was found that the Doras indeed were ordered up nearly a 1000 feet higher than the heavy III. gruppe equipped with the Fw 190A-8 and R2 versions for seeking out the bombers.
There must be made mention of the fact that only 6th staffel was first equipped at December 44's end right through the month of January and finally near February 45's middle that the two other stafafles the 5th and 7th were partially equipped. 8th staffle never received the Dora and of course the question beckons .........why not ? have not received that info.............yet.
Bill what was the date again of Lyons victory and in what area please, my stuff is buried.
the Ta was suppose to go back and re-equip all of III./JG 301 obviously it did not happen as well as Geschwader stab. I would not doubt and of course it is unknown due to time restrictions but all of JG 301 most likely would have had the TA on hand, then we could of compared performance records, surely the Anton would of been phased out with the Dora as well and Iv. th gruppe with the Bf 109G-10 would of been no more though it was blanked on on 2 march 45 and enver regained its self so was not even a help for the poor Jg in the closing weeks of thewar.