Erich has also commented on accounts that showed B-17 crews would abandon ship even before the closing in Fw 190s began firing.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
he was a ***** !, seriously with the inexperience of so many in 1945 due to the shortage of well trained "kids" at the stick, no good man hours in the air without getting hammered by US/RAF fighters. have at least a dozen personal interviews of P-51 vets that mentioned similar experiences over the Reich in engagements with 190's and 109's. have not heard as of yet any pilots of 262's jumping ship. Failed parachute yes ...........
hate to say this but will.........have found that for some it was better to fight another day let alone just were too plain scared and looked for a way out via the chute
I don't know, are you responding to my post? Let me ask you more directly, have you read "Me262 Combat Diary"? I think we should keep researching even on topics that other people have covered; my own research (not on WWII so much) is on topics others have covered; I want to find out more; I assume your interest and approach is the same.
But this topic, 262 actual losses v Allied claims, has been *basically* covered (Foreman and Harvey, and also quite a bit in Smith and Creek's series on the Me-262) and it's pretty clear the USAAF piston fighter claims against the 262's were reasonably accurate (by WWII standards), they shot down quite a lot of 262's, and that the 262's didn't shoot down very many piston fighters. We're not IMHO actually waiting for the basic accounting comparison of piston fighter claims and Me-262 losses. I'm sure further research such as yours would clarify certain incidents, but the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago.
Now as to why the P-51 (which scored the bulk of piston kills against jets) scored a high kill ratio over Me-262 when the 262 was a fundamentally more advanced airplane...You're right in a completely even match up where Me-262mainly sought to shoot down piston fighters, and where they had equal or superior numbers, and where the P-51's would usually have to break off action first for lack of fuel, then the result could have been very different. But that wasn't the historical situation.
Joe
Not to go off subject but there's been a lot of discussion recently of Soviet claims during the Korean war. I don't have exact numbers but the Russians claimed something like 650 F-86s during the Korean War. A total of 650 F-86s actually cycled through Korea, so we know the Soviet's claims are way out of this world on that claim. I also remember reading that they claimed something like 180 F-80s. That was about the entire F-80 strength in Korea! The USAF admits to something like 78 F-86s lost in air-to-air combat with another 225 or so lot to other causes. The USAF Claimed over 700 Migs, the Soviets admit to 345. Let's say at least half of those 225 F-86 losses were actual air-to-air losses (113). Combine those with the 75 and it gives a grand total of 345 Migs to 188 F-86s, that's still almost 2 to 1 USAF vs. Soviets, and that's using the Soviets own admitted loss numbers!. With all this said there is still no way to accurately divide the kills by country. With that all said in Korea it's my opinion that the F-86 vs the Mig 15 with Soviets, Chinese and Koreans combined probably had a conservative 4 to 1 kill ratio. Believing anything else is just buying into old Soviet propaganda...So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.
Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.Interesting comments flyboy! Although my knowledge regarding the Korean war is superficial now i learn something (also that is why i say i am not surprised to know the soviets lied -and possibly no one should-)
Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.
Best,
Dan