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- #41
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
plan_D said:
And I believe that is used as crteria for a kill as well.
PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
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And I believe that is used as crteria for a kill as well.
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
plan_D said:
How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base.
Erich, have you seen Wendel's report? Did Lauer make a emergency landing at a French airfield and later crashed when attacked by the P-47s (sic Spitfires)?
Erich
the old Sage
I have seen many reprots guys and I will cover the Spitfire kill a bit later. I am trying to look at a chronological order to all of this and of course excluding the Me 262 claims for now.
I am trying hard to report what was claimed or confirmed and cross reference the operation with the two sides involved. do not want to take sides but if all of you want to debate go ahead. Lauers first impression during his first forced landing in august mentioned that he thought they were Spits and not Jugs. As there is no I./KG 51 unit history yet confirmation of the days ops is still much sketchy. The Kommandeur of the I. gruppe survived the war and was writing the history but passed away and am not sure who is going to take up this very much needed units story.........indeed later war ops in spring of 45 just mentions an area of engagement or shoot down and not even a pilots name as well as no accurate spot of the downing either by the P-51 or the 262. Generalities exist
I am trying hard to report what was claimed or confirmed and cross reference the operation with the two sides involved. do not want to take sides but if all of you want to debate go ahead. Lauers first impression during his first forced landing in august mentioned that he thought they were Spits and not Jugs. As there is no I./KG 51 unit history yet confirmation of the days ops is still much sketchy. The Kommandeur of the I. gruppe survived the war and was writing the history but passed away and am not sure who is going to take up this very much needed units story.........indeed later war ops in spring of 45 just mentions an area of engagement or shoot down and not even a pilots name as well as no accurate spot of the downing either by the P-51 or the 262. Generalities exist
- Thread starter
- #44
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
KraziKanuK said:
I think if it could confirmed that they forced him down and he crashed, it should be considered a kill.
Erich
the old Sage
why do I feel this incredibly long thread is going to need an edit now and then.... 
if I may back up just a bit.
Ronny Lauers ture name was Hieronymous. On August 28 in a German report he was flying with Kommando Schenk and was reported to have been engaged near Brussels.
For 2 October Herr Lauer is in 3./KG 51 flying Me 262 coded 9K+NL, werke nummer : 170069, (shot down by US fighter near Rheine), we now know otherwise.......
if I may back up just a bit.
Ronny Lauers ture name was Hieronymous. On August 28 in a German report he was flying with Kommando Schenk and was reported to have been engaged near Brussels.
For 2 October Herr Lauer is in 3./KG 51 flying Me 262 coded 9K+NL, werke nummer : 170069, (shot down by US fighter near Rheine), we now know otherwise.......
- Thread starter
- #47
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Years later, but same case:
"One kill was credited to a F-15C pilot who maneuvered his MiG-29 opponent into flying his aircraft into the ground. The F-15C's 20-mm cannon was never fired in anger."
From Desert Storm Chronicles
"One kill was credited to a F-15C pilot who maneuvered his MiG-29 opponent into flying his aircraft into the ground. The F-15C's 20-mm cannon was never fired in anger."
From Desert Storm Chronicles
"How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base."
Well, if you are forced down into a crash in the midst of being engaged by enemy fighters, that constitutes a pretty clear and reasonable bright line for determining a kill don't you think?
Your example, as stated above, involves an "eventual" crash after hostile engagement has ceased.
Forcing a pilot, in the heat of combat, to crash-land or otherwise set down on your terms, as opposed to his, in a fashion that destroys his plane would clearly constitute a kill.
How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill?
Well, if you are forced down into a crash in the midst of being engaged by enemy fighters, that constitutes a pretty clear and reasonable bright line for determining a kill don't you think?
Your example, as stated above, involves an "eventual" crash after hostile engagement has ceased.
Forcing a pilot, in the heat of combat, to crash-land or otherwise set down on your terms, as opposed to his, in a fashion that destroys his plane would clearly constitute a kill.
How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill?
- Thread starter
- #49
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
DAVIDICUS said:
I think if you could confirm this, its a kill.
Erich
the old Sage
ok enough..........
3rd/4th Me 262 losses was on 5 October 1944.
the first was Hauptmann Hans-Christoph Buttmann of 3./KG 51 shot down by the RCAF fighters near Nijmegen in 9K+BL and the second this date was also from 3./KG 51, Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke flying 9K+PL shot down at Engden/Nordhorn although this maybe due to Flak ?
KK do you have information you want to share on these ? I can fill in a bit if not....
3rd/4th Me 262 losses was on 5 October 1944.
the first was Hauptmann Hans-Christoph Buttmann of 3./KG 51 shot down by the RCAF fighters near Nijmegen in 9K+BL and the second this date was also from 3./KG 51, Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke flying 9K+PL shot down at Engden/Nordhorn although this maybe due to Flak ?
KK do you have information you want to share on these ? I can fill in a bit if not....
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke was flying WNr 170082.
Info comes from the Classic 262 series.
It seems Lauer like to run his 262 (this time WNr 170069) out of fuel, for on the Oct 2 he again did so and crashed. The a/c that he attacked were from the 365thFG. They chased after him and claimed him as a kill.
Info comes from the Classic 262 series.
It seems Lauer like to run his 262 (this time WNr 170069) out of fuel, for on the Oct 2 he again did so and crashed. The a/c that he attacked were from the 365thFG. They chased after him and claimed him as a kill.
Erich:
The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.
It is quite a comfortable thing for the USAAF to know the accurate records of Kommando Nowotny and JG 7 are not available.
Here the victor´s syndrome emerges: my claims are true but those of the "unreliable" nazi jet are of course over inflated.
Very comfortable: I publish my list of alleged shot down jets as evidence and proceed to put the victories of the jets under close scrutiny and doubt, for after all the logs of jet units can not be found completely.
It is a very funny show you guys are running here.
Delcyros: so you are convinced the number of kills gained by the jet were extremely low because it was not a fighter? BAH!!
The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.
It is quite a comfortable thing for the USAAF to know the accurate records of Kommando Nowotny and JG 7 are not available.
Here the victor´s syndrome emerges: my claims are true but those of the "unreliable" nazi jet are of course over inflated.
Very comfortable: I publish my list of alleged shot down jets as evidence and proceed to put the victories of the jets under close scrutiny and doubt, for after all the logs of jet units can not be found completely.
It is a very funny show you guys are running here.
Delcyros: so you are convinced the number of kills gained by the jet were extremely low because it was not a fighter? BAH!!
Erich
the old Sage
1/2 ? maybe, maybe not. In case we have just proven of at least what 3 jets downed by fighters.
My whole purpose Udet with your help and others is try and get the record cleaned up. there are several overall histories that need to be checked as well as the fg histories to cross reference. I think we can all add two cents and make a fairly good listing. If anything to honour vets from both sides living and the fallen.
I've heard both sides of the story by the P-51 pilots and the jet pilots themselves. Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted...........
verstehen ?
My whole purpose Udet with your help and others is try and get the record cleaned up. there are several overall histories that need to be checked as well as the fg histories to cross reference. I think we can all add two cents and make a fairly good listing. If anything to honour vets from both sides living and the fallen.
I've heard both sides of the story by the P-51 pilots and the jet pilots themselves. Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted...........
verstehen ?
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
There is this site to check out, http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/index.htm
- Thread starter
- #55
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Udet said:
Eirch published earlier:
there were 118 1/2 Me 262's shot down, 12 Ar 234's and 5 Me 163 Komets.
I think that's a good basis to substantiate over-claims.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Whose records are those listed from FBJ??? German or Allied sources???
How much of a disparity is there between the 2 recorded kill listings???
How much of a disparity is there between the 2 recorded kill listings???
- Thread starter
- #57
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Erich said:
Erich, hang in there, this project got my attention and I appreciate your (and others) efforts in this research!
Erich
the old Sage
as I said I am going to try and remain neutral. Lets list in order the kills-claims or whatever we want to call it from the "sources" and try and reference Allied to true Me 262 losses if possible and then of course the turn around once this is all done of Me 262 claims-kills to true Allied losses; my thoughts can it be done .... ?
lets see where were we...ah back in October 44 yes
E
lets see where were we...ah back in October 44 yes
E
Erich
the old Sage
7 Ocotber, Kommando Nowotny intercepted B-24's and covering P-47's flown by Hub Zemke and Lt N. Benoit shot down Heinz Russel's Me 262 with Heinz bailing out successfully.
Everyone probably knows about this 361st pilot Urban Drew who shot down 2 Me 262's of Kommando Nowotny. Drew waited until 2 jets took off got in behind and shot down Lt. Gerhard Korbert who was killed in his crash-blew up and Hauptmann Arnold who was able to pop the canopy and bail out injured.
A I./KG 51 pilot bailed out unhurt under the P-47 guns of 78th fg Major R. E. Conner. the Me 262 was in the alnding approach near Osnabrück.
Everyone probably knows about this 361st pilot Urban Drew who shot down 2 Me 262's of Kommando Nowotny. Drew waited until 2 jets took off got in behind and shot down Lt. Gerhard Korbert who was killed in his crash-blew up and Hauptmann Arnold who was able to pop the canopy and bail out injured.
A I./KG 51 pilot bailed out unhurt under the P-47 guns of 78th fg Major R. E. Conner. the Me 262 was in the alnding approach near Osnabrück.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Erich, you are producing some great info with a nice neutral position. That is the way that history should be presented. There are several people here who should take note, myself included.
