PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

[plan_D]

Did he get any other kills?

I've got the 339th FG with 234 aerial kills and 438 ground kills. Were they just flying P-51Ds?

 

[lesofprimus]

Excellent.... U seem to be a magnet for great men Erich...

I wish to God that I had had the forethought to use a tape recorder when i went to different reunions and meetings with my father and grandfather... Some of those stories..... Jeez Louise........

 

[Erich]

I think it is 240 aerial kills but the gorund kills sounds about right. the big deal for this fg is the ground kill game they played with the higest scores on two seprate dates of over 100 apiece / 105 on 4 April 45 and 118 on 11 April 45.

Ace Jim Starnes is till alive and very active member within the newsletter publishing

 

[KraziKanuK]

OK, this is what Smith/Creek says for Tue April 10 1945.

- first unit to scramble - 2./JG7 from Burg just before the Americans drop their bombs.

- 10 Me262s destroyed on the ground - 3 > 2./JG7, 3 > 2./NAG2, 4 > 10./NJG11

- 14:45hr take off from Parchim > 9. and 10./JG7

Ofhr Walter Windisch and Uffz Loius-Paul Vigg shot down just after lift off, both survive, possibly by P-51s from 20thFG

- 20th FG - Capt Brown, Lt north, Lt Drozd claim one each. Lt Cudd/ F/O Rosenblum share another

- one of these might have been Oblt Franz Schall of 10./JG7(14 jet kills)

- 30 Me262s take off from Oranienburg, Larz and Brandenburg

- Feldwebel Cristoph Scharz shot down - Capt Compton, 353rd FG possible victor

- Capt. Abernathy, 252rdFG

- Lt Clark and Lt Memahan share another

- Lt Tenenbaum, 359thFG, over Gardelegen airfield

- Lt Guggenos, 359thFG

- Lt Paul Ppallenda, I./KG(J)54 killed in combat

- Lt Sharbo, 56thFG, Muritz See

- Lt Collins, 4thFG

- Lt McGinnis, 55thFG

- Lt Lashbrook, 55thFG

- Lt Col Duncan, 352cdFG, Neuruppin area

- Lt Pattilo, 352cdFG,Uelzen area

- Lt Prichard/Lt Ricci, 352cdFG, share

- Capt Pick/Lt Schwarz 364thFG, share

- Lt Gatlin, 356thFG

LW losses > 5 pilots KIA, 14 MIA. a/c - 13 lost, 14 missing, 8 damaged

LW claims > 18, a/c. 11 B-17s, 5 P-51s, 2- P-47s

 

[Erich]

good stuff, but I wish we would have waited later to place 10 april in chrono order. Schall was not shot down but had his Me 262 damged by P-51's and it was upon landing that he met his demise.

Lt Petersburs shot down Walter Schuck's 262 and this is confirmed in the Lt's battle report and first hand interview with Walters chuk as well as other historical evidence. Petersburs flew "Jospehine" a P-51 in the 20th fg.

Walter Hagenah probably destoryed the first jet to US fighter with R4M's ans he vaporized a P-51 when his 4 3cm weapons jammed. this through a personal interview with Walter via long letter and several book sources.

 

[lesofprimus]

Great info...

 

[plan_D]

Good or lucky shooting to hit a P-51 with R4/Ms.

 

[Chocks away!]

With the sole exception of nine (9) guncamera shots from USA fighters i have i would say the bulk -if not all- of those jet claims filed by USAAF veterans are pure tales.

The guncamera im referring to shows 9 jets indeed getting pounded by enemy fighters.

Amazingly all nine shots i owe show the German jet at very low altitude with the undercarriage displayed for landing. In two of those shots you can clearly see the paved runway and even trucks in the back ground. In some others you can see trees, thickets, etc.

Perhaps a few more jets damaged by a bomber box defensive barrage got intercepted and shot down, but the allied assertion of P-51s, P-47s or whatever plane managing to outfly the German jet is in my view a Grimm fairy tale.

Also what i do find quite strange is the fact some Me262s were captured intact at the end of the war and no mock-dogfights involving the Schwalbe and the "perfect" P-51 were made to attempt proving the very common allied babbling saying that when the jet turned "it was piece of cake".

Couldn´t it be the easiest and coolest way to show the world your alleged marvels such as the P-51 could deal with the Me262 in a dogfight?

Make a mock-dogfight and have it filmed god damn it.

Or perhaps such tests were carried out but the USAAF decided to either modify or conceal the actual outcome of such tests...who knows, they have done stuff like that. Why not to do it with the jet.

"Oh, well...the machine surely was fast...but our gallant and honorable pilots could handle it with relative east...whenever it turned, we fried the hun..."

Reminds me of the funny British testing of a captured Bf109G fitted with underwing gondola cannons to prove their Spitfire was "better".
Not even when compared to the gondola equipped Bf109 G could the Spitfire prove any significant and defintive "superiority".

I love this guy! You can always rely on Udet to shatter allied propaganda. Do you have the gun camera shot featuring runway/trucks/etc? I'd like to see that

 

[plan_D]

How is the fact that the Allied Air Force overwhelmed the Luftwaffe propaganda, exactly?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

262's were not very good dog fighters and had a P-51D or Spit gotten them in the right moment they would easily take out a 262 in a dog fight. Udet 262's were only fast when they were trying to get away. In a fight with a P-51 or Spit they would have had to slow down. There is no way a 262 could sustain and turn inside of a P-51 at over 500mph. The P-51 would just slow down and let the 262 fly into his sites. I dont see why you think that they could be fake.

 

[Erich]

so far what has been given in reference by KK and myself is all true and is proven by both Allied and German archiv documentation. True enough the 262 could attack by surprise, swoop down and attack then zoom up and away was the tactic against fighters. In a pure dog fight with tight turns the jet was useless and many times had flame outs all too common which proven one problem with the jet fuel mixes and touchy engines of the late 44 -45 periods. The short duration of flight also hampered the jet as already shown in several instances in November 44 when the jet just simply ran out of fuel, sputered and then was a sitting duck to be overwhelmed. And overwhelmed it was in 1945; there were just too few in the air.

Huie Lambs report ah I see it amongst the stack of 78th fg information lying in the corner of the office......

♪♪

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree the aircraft was best suited for intercepting and ground attack.

 

[plan_D]

The Allied fighters would just wait for them to finish their diving pass on a bomber then dive down on them, when they reach the bottom of the dive the 262 has started pulling up [and slowed down] and the fighter is on top of him and filling him full of lead. Simple.

 

[Erich]

that is a pefect IF and did not always work out that way. the only way as you mentioned was to dive from above on an angle and not allow the jet to fly straight away at top speed. It was critical to damage one or both engines in aerial combat. landing of course was another story and the jet was a limp dog, reason enough for the Germans to supplant the airfield with literally a huge arsenal of 20mm's

 

[lesofprimus]

And to supposedly have the greatest fighter that the Axis ever put into the service, the Ta-152, as a guardian top cover.......

 

[Erich]

Actually no Les...........

the plan for the future of the jet and Germany possibly but the Tank was used or was going to be used to stomp out any P-51 threat when the Ta 152 was to be built in greater numbers....

Sadly for the craft and it's pilots all combats were made at medium altitudes, no jet covers but covering it's own Fw 190Doras and Fw 190A's besides indivdual sweeps

E ~

 

[plan_D]

Well that was one of the oppurtunities to catch a 262 and the other was when they were slowing to aim.

Ananian got his kill when they actually tried to dogfight with him, didn't he? Inexperienced KG(J) 54 pilots, bomber 'aces' but no jet experience?

I read on interview with him.

 

[Chocks away!]

The Allied fighters would just wait for them to finish their diving pass on a bomber then dive down on them, when they reach the bottom of the dive the 262 has started pulling up [and slowed down] and the fighter is on top of him and filling him full of lead. Simple.

Unless you were falling to earth with pieces of b-17, b-24, p-47 or p-p1 and feeling rather unpleasant...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There's been some grest stuff here! Some more data, a different war...

Here's a list of B-29 Korean War gunner kills. I believe all of them are against Mig-15s. Hope to have more information later this week....

RANK FIRST_NAME NAME VICTORIES AIR_SERVICE UNITS
SGT BILLY G. BEACH 2 USAF 28BS
SGT MERLE GOLF 2 USAF 28BS/19BG
SSGT MICHAEL R. MARTOCCHIA 2 USAF 28BS/19BG
SGT GUS C. OPFER 2 USAF 3BS
STSGT JAMES C. DAVIS 1 USAF 343BS
1STSGT ERCEL S. DYE 1 USAF 371BS
CPL LEONARD B. EVERSOLE 1 USAF 3BS
STSGT WILLIAM H. FINNEGAN 1 USAF 343BS
STSGT RICHARD W. FISHER 1 USAF 371BS
SSGT NORMAN S. GREENE 1 USAF 28BS
SGT EARL A. KANOP 1 USAF 343BS
SGT HARRY J. LAVENE 1 USAF 91SRS
SGT LYLE R. PATTERSON 1 USAF 3BS
CPL HARRY E. RUCH 1 USAF 28BS/19BG
PFC HARRY E. RUSH 1 USAF 93BS
TECHSGT HAROLD M. SETTERS 1 USAF 344BS
SGT FRED R. SPIVEY 1 USAF 371BS
SGT DAVID R. STIME 1 USAF 371BS
TSGT CHARLES W. SUMMERS 1 USAF 28BS
SGT ROYAL A. VEATCH 1 USAF 3BS
STSGT JERRY M. WEBB 1 USAF 371BS
SGT ROBERT A. WINSLOW 1 USAF 3BS
A1C ROBERT L. DAVIS 0,5 USAF 343BS
A1C ROBERT W. SMITH 0,5 USAF 343BS

Courtesy of: http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/korus2.htm

 

[lesofprimus]

E, I wasnt implying that they were used for this task, but were supposed to be, as u clarified for me...... Thx.........