Pzkpfw V Panther its variants.

Airframes said:

Thanks yet again Charles, especially for the 'action' pic and the profile. It brings it all together nicely, and would make a good subject for a model.
Terry.

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Agreed Terry, I just have to read this thread start to finish cause I would like to up my knowlegde on tanks. Thanks guys for the information and pictures

You are welcomed, the source of this last picture is:

great info charles i'd never heard the story of cuckoo before it was a great read thanks

Soren said:

Did I act childish ? I just said it how it is, as usual. Guess some people can't take that.

As for why I'm supposedly always involved, well probably because I don't give in to arrogance and bullying, never have and never will.

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Did I say you were?

I said the whole arguement and situation was childish, and that you always seem to be involved. I even said you were not to be blamed for it, but that you were invovled.

Understand?

Man sometimes it is like talking to a



Now lets move on from this, and carry on with the on topic discussion.

great info charles i'd never heard the story of cuckoo before it was a great read thanks

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Yuo are welcome, the russians used some Panther too, however they complained about the ( suposedly) excessive maintenance required by the Maybach engine and transmition.

Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis (II) 2 cm MG 151 Flakvierling.

Design dated december 1942, this used a completely new turret with a cuadruple mounting of 20mm cannons. The curious fact was it didnt used the army Rheinmetall Flak 38 guns but the Air Force Mauser MG 151/20 with a higher rate of fire and lesser muzzle velocity.



The guns were placed in pairs above each other off centered, probably to provide a wider pattern of fire. Combined rate of fire exceeded the 3000 rpm .
Effective ceiling was 600 meters. Muzzle velocity in the Mauser guns : 720-780 mps. ( for more info in Mauser MG 151 check my Luftwaffe guns topic in the technical section)

The +85º and -3 elevation teorically allowed to engage ground target with devastating effects against infantry and soft skinned vehicles.
Aiming was provide by a periscopic binocular paralel gunsight with 1,5 x magnification and 28 mm wide. Frontal armor in the turret was 100mm, and 45 mm in the sides. Remained as design projeckt only, not even a prototype was made of this interesting flakpanzer panther.

Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis (III) Flakpanzer Cölian mit 3,7cm Flakzwilling 43.



Design of december 1943. again the effort to produce a heavy antiaircraft plataform saw the Panther chassi used , this time with a pair of Rheinmetal Borsig 37mm Flak 43 guns. the flak 43 was a modified variant of the army Flak 36 designed to be manufactured with more stamped and welded parts saving weight and money.

Its rate of fire was 160 rpm per barrel. The twin mounting had a maximum elevation of +86º and a -3º depression. A coincidence rangefinder and a periscopic gunsight were mounted in teh turret roof to help aim and range stimation.



The development of this variant was tranfered to Vereinige Apparatebau. a Rehinmetall Borsig subsidiary wiich worked to manufacture a turret with a fast revolving movement and tested the complexities to engage an air moving target from inside the armored cover.
Just a prototype with full scale wooden turret on Ausf D chassis was completed and displayed in mid 1944.

Some more images of the Panther with infrared illuminating devices.








Worth to mention the the nightfighting Panther should be used acompanied by infantry using "Vampyr" IR sights in their MP 44s, and also for special variant of the Sd.Kfz 251 with large IR searchlight for iluminating and marking target for the Panthers guns. That combat formation was called "Sperber" and seems just one entered in action before wars end.

It was quite high tech for the time.

The first photo above (a Panther with IR) is a fake.
Axis WWII Discussion Group: IR Panther KOed in Falaise

This was the Sd Kfz 251 variant with infrared searchlight, not a Panther but I think is logical to post it here as it is an accesory to the Panther units:

Sd.Kfz 251 with night vision searchlight:

The "Biwa" infrared sight (connected to weapons) with an observation range of 300 to 400 meters is still being developed. Finally in October 1944, 10 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz.251) were transferred directly to a firm for installation of "Uhu" (owl) equipment.



On 8 August 1944, the m.Schtz.Pz.Wg. (Uhu) (Sd.Kfz.251/20) was listed as being outfitted with one Fu 8 and one Fu 5 radio sets as well as a Bordsprechanlage (intercom system). As listed on 15 November 1944, the (Sd.Kfi.251120) was to be armed with an M.G.42 and an M.P.40 and outfitted with one 60 cm searchlight, one 20 cm searchlight, one BG 1251 (infrared sight), and one FG 1252 (infrared sight).60cm "red light" projector.



Six Sd.Kfz.251120 were sent by rail to Putlos, leaving on 7 March 1945, and nine Sd.Kfi.251120 were sent by rail to Bergen, also leaving on 7 March 1945. The only recorded operational employment of the "Uhu" was ordered by the Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen on 12 February 1945 with the assignment of the 1 .Kompanie/Panzer-Abteilung 10 1 of the Fuehrer-Grenadier-Division to complete company-strength troop trials.

This unit was to be issued 10 Panthers with F.G.1250 infrared sights and three Sd.Kfz.251120 with built in B.G.1251 (Uhu). On 26 March 1945, Major Woellwarth and Hauptmann Rietz reported on the action of the first company equipped with infrared sights for night combat. The infrared equipment had performed successfully without any breakdowns.

The "uhu" device was designed to be the main illuminating device for the projected "sperber" nachtkampfgruppen, night combat units equipped with panthers and Grenadiers using Stg-44 rifles with the vampyr night vision scope.

Beobachtung Gerät BG 1251 (20 cm searchlight) y Fern Gerät FG 1252, ( long distance sighting device) for the half track driver.

Panther with 8,8 centimeters KwK in narrow Turret.

In a meeting of the Entwicklungskommission Panzer on 23 January 1945, Oberst Holzhaeuer (Wa Pruef 6) reported that development of a Panther with the 8.8 cm KwK L/71 in a Panther- Schmalturm was to be accomplished by Daimler-Benz. The turret ring diameter was to be 100 mm larger than the current Panther turret with an increase in weight of about one metric ton.

Drawing No. Hln B-130 dated 18 October 1944 was created by Krupp as a proposal for fitting the 8,8 cm KwK43 L/71 into a Panther Schmalturm with minimal modification. There was very limited space available for loading the long (1167 mm) high explosive round.




Ammunition stowage amounted to 56 rounds in comparison to 103 rounds previously stowed in the Panther. A wooden model had been completed. An experimental model in soft steel had yet to be fabricated. General-Major Thomale (Insp.Gen.d.Pz.Tr.) stated that the planetary gear final drive was absolutely necessary for a Panther with the 8.8 cm KwK L/71 and that it would be necessary to conduct studies on ammunition stowage and loading in the soft steel model.

Some of the characteritics were:

-Elevation from minus 8 through plus 15 degrees.

-Only the previous 8,8 cm KwK43 developed for the Tiger II was acceptable.

-The recoil and return cylinders were to be mounted above the gun with the bore evacuation cylinder in the middle.

-The muzzle brake was to be dropped.

-The trunnions were to be relocated.

- A smooth armor plate for the turret front with the small possible apertures for the main gun and machinegun.

-The iddle of the trunnions were to be located on the forward edge of the front plate.

-A turmfernmesser, turret rangefinder was to be included. An attempt was to be made to use the already available 1,32 m or 1,65 m rangefinders designed for Panzerkampfwagen

The war ended before the model was fully completed but is not wrong to say that given the extreme limited room left by the instalation of the heavier and larger main gun the Panther ausf F o Panther II equipped in this way would be extremely unconfortable for the crew, specially the "ladenschutze" ( loader).

The Krupp proposal for fitting the 8,8 cm KwK43 L/71 into the Panther Schmalturm, drawing dated november 1944.

CharlesBronson said:

Yuo are welcome, the russians used some Panther too, however they complained about the ( suposedly) excessive maintenance required by the Maybach engine and transmition.

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Maybach HL210
The engine was rushed into production without all the bugs being worked out. The engine could not be reliably operated at its maximum power output of 3000 rpms and indeed the operating manual given to the Tiger crews, the Tigerfibel, recommended no more than 2600 rpms. It soon became obvious that the Tiger I was seriously underpowered. Because of the tight engine compartment and other technical limitations it was impossible to install a physically larger, more powerful motor. As a result the original engines displacement was increased by replacing the aluminum cylinder block with a cast iron block and boring it out to 23.88 liters (1457 cubic inches). This increased the weight of the motor but also increased the rigidity. The result was a gain in power to 700bhp at 3000rpm. The new engine was designated the Maybach HL 230 TRM P45.

Maybach HL230
The Maybach HL230 is a water-cooled 60° 23 liter V12 gasoline engine designed by Maybach. It was used during World War II in heavy German tanks, namely the Panther, Jagdpanther, Tiger II, Jagdtiger (HL230 P30), and later versions of the Tiger I and Sturmtiger (HL230 P45). The engine was a follow-up version of the slightly smaller HL210 that had a displacement of 21 liters and, unlike the HL230, an aluminium crankcase and block. The HL210 was used to equip the first 250 Tiger I tanks built.
The engine has a volume of 23,095 cm^3 (1,925 cm^3; per cylinder) and a maximum output of 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW) at 3,000 rpm. Maximum torque is 1850 Nm at 2,100 rpm. Typical output was 600 PS (592 hp, 441 kW) at 2,500 rpm.
The crankcase and block are made of cast grey iron. The cylinder heads are made from cast-iron. The engine weighs 1200 kg and its dimensions are 1000 x 1190 x 1310 mm. Aspiration is provided by four twin-choke Solex type 52JFF carburettors.
Approximately 9,000 HL230's were produced in total by Maybach, Auto Union and Daimler-Benz.

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I think there were 3 reasons why Panzer had so many engine failure(overheating, catching fire and buring lubricating oil etc ) in 1943 summer.

1)The engine of Panzer D is tweaked to 700PS which is beyond the actual ability of HL230. Gemran was overclocking a CPU then.

2) Hot Summer

3) full fording equipment

The Panther ausf D had a full fording equipment wich was capable to be installed in 30 min and gave the capabilities go trough calm waters up to 4 meters deep, this commoditie was delEted in the ausf A variant because slowed manufacturing and decreased the airflow to engine radiators

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The Panther was powered by a 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW)/3000 rpm, 23.1 litre Maybach HL 230 P30 V-12 petrol engine that drove two front drive sprockets via the gearbox and steering unit. The engine was generally considered reliable, and had a fatigue life of up to 2000 kilometers. In order to minimize engine failures, the Panther engines were fitted with a governor in late 1943 that limited the engine revolutions to 2500 rpm and power to 600 PS (592 hp, 441 kW). The installation of the governor also dropped the tank's top speed from 55 km/h to 46 km/h.

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However, even 600PS @2500rpms is a bit overloaded for HL230! The average no-failure time is only 70 hours, need overhaul every 100 hours, engine scapped without overhaul every 120 hours. After WWII french army tested panzers and found that the average engine life is only 1000km, the final drivers life is merely 150 km! Finally those french showed their respect/sympathy to german maintenance staff. It is said that panzer's avarage mileage in every battle is only 25km!

Another proof is the overheat of exaust pipes in 1945 early which demonstate HL230 is even overloaded at 600PS /2500 rpms, I think only HL210@550PS/2500rpms can achieve the reliability of allied/USSR tank engine.

Anyway, the output demand of German panzer/tiger exceeded the actual ability of german tank engine technology in WWII.

The final drive failure even existed in 1944 late, every abondoned panzer by german in normandy had a final drive problem.

I'd like to see a source for the claim that the HL230 didn't run reliably at 700 HP Tempest (And Battlefield.ru is NOT a reliable source btw). Also I have to ask, again, is Tempest just another nick for Schwarzpanzer ??

)The engine of Panzer D is tweaked to 700PS which is beyond the actual ability of HL230. Gemran was overclocking a CPU then.

2) Hot Summer

3) full fording equipment

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I agree, actually I think I ve mentioned some related to the engine limitations before, the usable power is most of the times quoted as 650hp at 2500 rpm.

Is very clear that if you tried to drive the Maybach at full trottle all the time you going to be on foot very soon.

By 1944 all the engine issues had been solved and the engine ran very reliably at 700 PS, and this is well documented.

And I have no idea where Tempest/Schwarzpanzer got the idea that German engine technology wasn't up to the task, esp. when they were ahead of Allies in this department throughout the war.

Soren said:

By 1944 all the engine issues had been solved and the engine ran very reliably at 700 PS, and this is well documented.

And I have no idea where Tempest/Schwarzpanzer got the idea that German engine technology wasn't up to the task, esp. when they were ahead of Allies in this department throughout the war.

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allied and axis technology is on same level.
German can't produce UFO ,soren.
Tempest is not ****panzer's nick name.

The last one I can tell you: From 1901 to 1945,US and UK 's science/technology outcome is 3 time as german's.
Believe in historian,plz.

See:

<<A Thousand Years of Science and Scientists:988 to 1988>>

TempestMKV said:

allied and axis technology is on same level.

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No not quite actually. The Germans were ahead in most scientific fields from the start of WW2 and to the finish. The fields of science where the Germans were clearly ahead until the very end were aerodynamics (And physics in general actually), chemistry electronics.

Germany had actually been the leader in technology since way before WW2, and continued to be so until the end of WW2, after which it still continued to be the leader in many areas right up till today actually.

Ever heard of the University of Göttingen and the labs there ? Most of the great mathematicians phycisist of the 19th 20th century went there. Or how about the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Max Planck Institute etc etc ? I guess you never heard of these either?

The Laboratory of Göttingen was the main center of theoretical and mathematical aerodynamics and fluid dynamics research from soon after 1904 and till the end of WW2, completely leading the way throughout WW2.

Because of this, since 1904 and throughout WW2, the Germans were ahead in aerodynamics, esp. high speed aerodynamics, Adolf Busemann Ludwig Prandtl being responsibe for the greatest advances in areodynamics in history. Ludwig Prandtl, the farther of modern aerodynamics, coining the term boundary layer and founding modern mathematical aerodynamics. Prandtl was the absolute undisputed leader in the field of aerodynamics/fluid dynamics throughout the war.

Adolf Busemann was the foremost expert in supersonic aerodynamics, and with the help of Prandtl he was the first to discover establish the characteristics, advantages disadvantages of the swepped wing. Hence why the Germans were deploying and designing swepped winged jet a/c during WW2, long before anyone else. The famous German designer Hans Multhopp was also an expert in this area.

Hence why the Germans were fielding the best fighters and most advanced a/c of WW2, the below examples being completely unrivalled:

Me-262A-1a
Ta-152H C
He-162A-2
FW-190 D-12 13
Ar-234B-2
He-277
Ju-388

The German advances in aerodynamics was also the reason why they were the leaders in ballistics research and designs, designing producing the best projectiles of WW2. German rifles, machineguns etc etc were firing heavy boattailed spitzer projectiles (Designation: FMJ-BT) with very high Ballistic Coefficients, and many other specialized types, while nearly all other countries, including the US, still used flat based Spitzer bullets from the first world war. Spitzer bullets (Sharp pointed bullet) are a German/French design btw and were revolutionary in WW1.

German snipers could because of their better and more accurate projectiles also hit their targets more precisely at longer ranges than Allied snipers, a great tactical advantage on the open battlefield.

The Germans were also the leaders in rocket science, being the first to deploy self guided ballsitic missiles and air to air rockets.

Germany was also the leader in radar infrared techonology, producing the best infrared imaging and being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms AFV's, a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.

And like we all know the Germans were also waay ahead throughout the war when it came to designing and building tanks, fielding the unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants.

On top of this the Germans were also the undisputed leaders in smallarms gun design, designing building the best most powerful guns of WW2, most notably the unrivalled examples below:

Smallarms
MG-42, the best machinegun of WW2 and all time.
MG-34, the second best machine gun of WW2.
FG-42, one of the most advanced smallarms of WW2, a supurb LMG.
StG.44, THE best smallarm of WW2.
M98, the best bolt action rifle of all time.

Aircraft armament
30mm Mk-108
30mm Mk-103
20mm MG151/20
15mm MG151

Big guns
128mm KwK/PaK 44 L/55 L/61, the most powerful AT gun of WW2.
88mm KwK/PaK 43 L/71, the best tank AT gun of WW2.
75mm KwK/PaK 42 L/70, the second best tank gun of WW2.
170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2.

And the list goes on....

Furtermore the Germans were producing the best most precise optics in the world, Zeiss Dialytan developing and providing optics for tanks, smallarms, guns, U-boats etc etc of unrivalled quality precision.

And talking about U-boats, again the Germans were way ahead with their revolutionary electro boats, the type XXI XXIII.

Tempest is not ****panzer's nick name.

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Seems it is from your postings.

The last one I can tell you: From 1901 to 1945,US and UK 's science/technology outcome is 3 time as german's.
Believe in historian,plz.

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Well that's very untrue I'm afraid, check your history.

Oh and before we take this any further let's do it another place, this is Charles's thread about the Panther and its' variants, not a place for us to discuss.

CharlesBronson said:

I agree, actually I think I ve mentioned some related to the engine limitations before, the usable power is most of the times quoted as 650hp at 2500 rpm.

Is very clear that if you tried to drive the Maybach at full trottle all the time you going to be on foot very soon.

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Limitation imposed to preserve engine life and inability to run at maximum output are two very different things.

I believe in the case of the Maybach 230 the limitation was to avoid unnecessary engine wear, which seems logical given that the maximum torque was already produced by engine at 2500.

Personally, I have never seen any evidence to that the 2500 rpm governing was put in use because of troubles with the final drive or the engine itself.

Personally, I have never seen any evidence to that the 2500 rpm governing was put in use because of troubles with the final drive or the engine itself

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Pobably in a desperate situation that limit was reached...and also exceeded.

Ausf A in Hungary 1944.